When big names steal from smaller creators

Akua: Today’s episode on the independent business podcast is quite juicy with a lot of key takeaways. Let me set up the scene for you. Sisters Caroline and Phoebe Connell have grown up loving the show pretty little liars and decided to launch a podcast called the pretty little podcast for over two years.

They have grown the show and cultivated an amazing community. Then one day they find out that someone else decides to start a podcast with the exact same name and not just anyone. Two actors from the show, this sparked a wave of controversy and immediately put Caroline and Phoebe in a very unique position.

Well, thanks to TikTok and the amazing community they have built called Boots on the Ground, they were able to get the larger creators to change the name of the podcast. Their story leads to the conversation about what business owners can do to make sure they protect their brand and intellectual property.

This episode is a great reminder for business owners to never be afraid to speak up for yourself and that it’s never too late to do the right thing. Now let’s get into the episode. Hey everyone. This is your host Akua Kanadu and you’re listening to the independent business podcast. More people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process.

So on this show, I get to sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs, and creators to break down the science of self made success so that you can achieve it too.

Hello, Phoebe and Caroline. How are we doing? Amazing. How are you? Good. Thank you so much for coming on this show because I just feel like every independent business owner needs to hear this story needs to obviously watch pretty little liars so they can listen to your show. Absolutely. We were just talking about how I was like, I’ve never seen pretty little liars.

My sister says it’s a great show. Like I’m like, now maybe I’ll get into it. Cause she did like low key, get me into one tree hill later in life, like a year ago. So I was like, you know what? Maybe I’ll add pretty little liars to the list. So thank you for coming on. 

Caroline: Definitely recommend. 

Akua: Yes. Okay. So let’s, let’s break it down.

I really want to know here from your perspective of just essentially what happened. Like you were honestly found yourself in a very, very tough and sticky situation immediately with somebody taking the name of your show. And so what happened? I want to hear from you. Break it down of like that whole process of what it looked like, like when you initially found out to like getting every, getting your name back, like let, just break down the whole story for me.

Carolyn, I’ll have you go. 

Caroline: Yeah. So it was just a normal day and I woke up and I checked my Instagram and I had a few messages tagging us in the announcement of another podcast with. Essentially the same name as us. Um, and it was also going to be a Pretty Little Liars rewatch podcast. So, kind of fighting for the same audience.

And then on top of that, it was two actresses from the show. So, um, automatically, the draw is there. They are offering something that we just can’t offer. So, I see this, and my first thought was just like, Ugh, how are we going to salvage this? Because my fear is that, I don’t know. This is going to bury us when somebody Googles pretty little liars podcast to find one hours is no longer going to be the first thing they see.

And most likely most people are not looking for two pretty little liars podcasts, so they’re only going to choose one. So that was my fear. Um, so I reached out to them actually kind of trying to be a little bit cheeky, like, uh, Acknowledging the fact we have the same name, but also saying, you know, maybe there’s some sort of a collab thinking maybe we can kind of like benefit from this in some way, their audience, whatever, maybe they would post about our show or we could do a social collab, something they didn’t respond and in the next like seven hours, things just blew up and we’re really lucky.

Like our listeners are, are pretty loyal. We, we call them boots on the ground. Um, they’re very. Very loyal. So they were kind of in the trenches like fighting for us and commenting and we didn’t have to do any Activating to get them to do that They just kind of saw that this wasn’t right and I think the writing was on the wall for what this could do to our show so after about seven hours and hundreds of comments that they were deleting and responding to kind of inappropriately and Whatever they responded to us and it just the message was was kind of You can go watch the video that I made to see all the receipts, but it was not, like, a super warm, uh, understanding message, and the suggestion was that we would change our name because they already had 12 episodes recorded, when we had, you know, over 100 episodes recorded, and merch, and all these things.

And it just kept getting bigger from there. We had people from their podcast network commenting kind of like crazy things. It was honestly unbelievable to us. We had the actresses commenting, uh, kind of mean things as well. It just really got out of hand and that’s ultimately what fueled so much of the.

The anger I think from the audiences was like, why are you, not only are you doing this, but you, you’re being so nasty about it. Uh, so I made the video to kind of try and get a little bit of traction. Some people had said, you should put this on Tik TOK and I did and. It went pretty viral and ultimately they decided to change their name.

So that’s the not so short, short story of what happened. 

Akua: I know, but it’s just so interesting. Well, number one, I loved how you saw it as, okay, this is the, not a really fun situation to be in. However, you saw this as like, okay, how is a way of like, right, a community over competition? What is the way that we can work together to where this can really benefit both parties?

And so like, you really tried to give into the individuals the benefit of the doubt. And so a question that I have, and Phoebe, I would love to know your perspective on this too, especially when they, when you reached back out initially, and they didn’t answer, they didn’t respond. And And also them asking you guys to essentially change your name just because they had episodes record.

Like how did that make you guys feel? 

Phoebe: I think a big part of what we felt initially in like that first day was we kind of felt like we were being met with this wall that we were hitting that we weren’t anticipating with something that we had been cultivating for two years at that point. And I think we were just looking to give them the benefit of the doubt, and to be met with, like, It was just incredibly disheartening for them to, It was doing exactly what we were saying our problem was, is that it was two bigger creators who had a built in audience and a network behind them.

Just using that to their advantage trying to get just continue to stomp on smaller creators, and it was really it was disheartening But eventually the community that rallied behind us, I think is what kept us motivated 

Caroline: V. Can I jump in really quick? Just yeah Absolutely thing especially for Phoebe I think this was major because as we mentioned these were actresses from the show They weren’t like the typical The four main girls, but they were pretty significant characters.

You know, we’re talking about them every week on the show and Phoebe, like this was her show growing up. It was her comfort show. So she loves this. And so for us in a way, we’re like, Oh my gosh. What a dream that they even know we exist now, you know, and maybe there is a world where there’s some sort of collaboration and this could be solved in a really nice way.

And like, we could, we could benefit from this. Maybe there could be some sort of relationship or connection we could make here. And we could actually talk about the show we love so much with people who were on it. So there was part of it that was like. You know, for one moment, our hopes were high in that respect.

And then it was almost like an even bigger heartbreak when they turned out to kind of be so nasty because it was like, wait, what? Like we, we really wanted you guys to be so great because we love what you do so much. So 

Phoebe: that was, I think, an added layer. With bigger creators, you also, like, with them having the network and everything, I think we anticipated there to be a level of decorum that just right out the gate, as soon as they started responding, there wasn’t.

And it felt really shady, it didn’t feel professional, and again, that just added to the kind of gut punch of the whole thing. 

Akua: Oh my gosh. That is such a good point because these are people like, like, you know, obviously the show, like you admire their work, their craft and what they’re doing, and you’re talking about it every single week on your show.

And so I loved how, again, you tried to take something negative and looking into a positive opportunity of like, Hey, like this is a great way for both podcasts to be supported, especially since you guys are smaller creators have spent a long time. How long have you’re like, at that point, how long have you guys been podcasting, building your show in your community?

We had just hit. Two years of doing it. Right. Wow. So like you guys have poured something into that and then for somebody just to kind of come in. So again, you were really looking from that place of how do we make this work? How, again, community over competition, like how can we support each other in that?

And so that’s just like really just super unfortunate. So were you guys considering when they asked you guys to change the name, did you guys consider changing the name? 

Caroline: Uh, no, we did not, I thought, I mean, we had merch like, and that was a lot of the, and I’m sure we’ll get into this later, but some of the feedback from the internet was like, why didn’t you trademark the name?

And you know, that, that on one hand, we’re like, yeah, we really should have thought about that. But when we started this, we did not think this was going to be an issue. We didn’t know if this would grow two years, you know, long, like we had no clue and we’re not. At that time, we, we didn’t really have any business acumen.

So that wasn’t even on our radar. Like it just wasn’t, we certainly checked to see if the name had been taken, but we just didn’t see the name for a trademark. And actually since this, we’ve been told that that’s not really like typical for podcasts anyway, but. It was, yeah, so we were just like, we’re not going to change our name.

And yeah, I guess we should have trademarked it. But at this point, you know, we have merch, we have all these things. We’re not going to change it. I guess we’re just going to be competing. Yeah. We didn’t really think about that. 

Akua: But this is something true. I’m going to highlight that a lot of business owners have found themselves.

In these types of positions, right? Like we start something, we launch our business. And at that point, you’re just trying to start just to start, right? Like you’re excited about the project and that is commendable, right? Like that’s the hardest piece of entrepreneurship just in general is getting started on something that you’re really passionate about.

Like, despite all the fear, you’re like, look, we’re just going to have fun with this and let’s just see how it goes. And so again, we just don’t anticipate number one, the results of it, but then also to what can come from those results. And so I think, um, Again, right. That business acumen, like a lot of us just, we’re all learning as we go.

And it’s just like, I think you guys just had a very, very unique position that most people wouldn’t find themselves in as a creator. And so when everything initially happened, did you happen to seek legal advice? Like, what did you really explore of what your options were? 

Phoebe: Um, we did, we talked to some people that we know in the legal field and we kind of walked through some things and we also ultimately decided to file for an LLC, which is, again, something that when we started this, it came from a really, like, a passionate place as it’s a passion project at the end of the day, which again, adds to how it felt when, when these two bigger creators were coming for it, it felt like it.

It just meant something more to us in a way that, to them, it was another channel for growth, which is valid, but it, it just, it has a place in our heart that feels a little bit different, but we filed for an LLC, so now we’re like a business, like officially, which was not, again, something that we anticipated at all, um, but it’s really exciting and was reassuring.

It’s a nice seal of protection that now we have. 

Caroline: And we were also advised, um, so during the kind of trademark process, which I should also mention, when we started our podcast, our budget was 0. We used equipment that Phoebe had because she is in the music field. You know, there was like no investment other than our time and we didn’t have the means to trademark at that time, you know, like it wasn’t something that we would have done.

I will say we went to go file the trade market had not been filed by them either. So, you know, they came in on a network that hired them to do a specific show. And you would think that that is something since they were backed by a team, you know, they’re not independent business owners. So you would think that would be part of the process is doing your due diligence, checking those things.

Filing a trademark, you know, et cetera. If that was something that we should have done, then may certainly should have done it. And so we were advised to add the little T M symbol, which we learned is to show intent to file the trademark. Um, and then we could kind of take our time and wait until we were in a financial position where it made sense for us to trademark.

Because again, at that time. We still weren’t really like, we were like, uh, do we want to spend this much of our podcast money on this? I don’t know, because there’s only so much and we don’t know where we go from here. Um, so ultimately we decided to file the LLC and that that’s the step we took. But ultimately, I mean, we probably will end up trademarking.

Hopefully you won’t run into this again, but yeah, so that’s. 

Akua: I don’t think it’ll happen again, girl. I better not! She says she, 

Caroline: she barks and she bites. We’re gonna lay off of that one. I hope. 

Akua: Oh my gosh. But I think that’s again, like, hindsight is 20 20. And the fact that, you know, now you know. And that you’ve taken the steps to be able to protect what it is that you’ve created.

Like I said, now you’re an LLC, so you have that protection. Now you’re gonna start taking the steps to trademark. But either way, like, you have started to just lay out the ground for what it is that you have created. And so I really want to talk about just the power of community and Because your community rallied.

I mean, not only that, like, other people rallied, right? That heard your story, rallied around you, people that you didn’t even know. What did that look like? And then also, too, did that help propel your show even more? 

Phoebe: Yes, absolutely. Initially when Everything happened. I woke up to the news. Caroline, I think, woke up and it, like, it happened while she was, like, awake.

So she had to go through that initial spiral of a feeling while I was still asleep. And then I woke up and saw everything. And our community was already, again, boots on the ground. Like, they were in the comments tagging us a trillion times, tagging them a trillion times. Like, it was really, It kind of floored me it was the first time caroline and I had an opportunity to see what we had been growing For the last two years and there are definitely people that engage really consistently with us and we interact with them and we know their names but this gave us an opportunity to See people that normally would just they just listen but then we saw that we’ve created something that people really love and believe in and it kind of Refresh that ambition for us and belief in what we do.

And then on TikTok, it just added a completely different layer of it because now there are people that have truly never heard of us. And frankly, a lot of the people didn’t even, they might not have even started listening, but they had a sense of belief. In fighting for the underdog or small creator rights, I guess.

Caroline: One other thing that I’ll say is, you know, we, we call our listeners the road warriors. And they really are that, warriors. Um, but, but, they have been, you know, we have the usual suspects. The people that are always interacting and commenting and that, you know, we have, we know their username, you know. So those people, of course, were, were, you know, In the comments, but exactly what Phoebe said, it was like, Oh, there are all these silent listeners who just aren’t interacting all the time, but they’re listening and holy moly, we can now see this number.

And when we took it to Tik TOK, I think, gosh, one thing about Tik TOK is those people love an underdog and that is what we were, uh, at that time. So I kind of used my. My English major to tap into like all the different appeals and get that, get that go in with the video to try to get them to have the reaction that I wanted them to have, you know, thinking of us that way.

And I think we had one more thing going for us, which is that. The two people who are running the show, like this was an added bonus. We had that a lot of creators do not have. They’re very polarizing and very controversial. So, you know, once it, once this really started taking off, it was like, it didn’t matter who was on the other end of it, you know, once it got to a certain.

Person on the for you page. It was like, they just hate one of those actors. So they, They want to support us just by default. So that was also something that was kind of interesting. And we just talked to, there’s another creator named Victoria Alaria, who we just had on our podcast. She’s going through this exact same thing right now, but she does not have the added bonus of having, you know, the other person who took the name.

So controversial. So she’s not having as much luck, which is a bummer. Um, so I, I do have to say that was one added at a bonus that we had there. 

Akua: Yeah. And I really want to break that down because I really want to know. First of all, when you, you know, smaller creators, especially you said this individual is going through the same exact thing that you’re going through.

What advice do you have for independent business owners when they see that their work has been stolen, their intellectual property, you know, the name of their brand and stuff is that it’s being used by somebody else. Um, what advice do you have for people that are going through that? I 

Phoebe: think it’s not a time to sit down and be quiet and just be like, Well, it is what it is.

This was great while I had it, but now I don’t know what to do with it. You have to, and I think this is where community and, and in your business, endeavors, really fostering community around your project as early as you can. 

Caroline: Yeah. So 

Phoebe: that later on, you now have that as like, you have this group of people that also really believe in what you’re doing.

So if this were to happen to you. You have boots on the ground and people that are going to live in people’s Instagram comments until they realize that they can’t fight this fight anymore. And they’re going to have to do the right thing. Um, but it is hard when like with Victoria, the creator that is using her name is kind of like a beloved influencer.

She’s very popular. She has probably double the followers that Victoria has. And Victoria has a lot of followers. So it’s really like, um, it’s like a massive, a massive. situation and I don’t know it’s tough because this creator is also isn’t feeding the fire the way that yeah the people that we were going up against were.

Caroline: My theory is that her team saw what happened with ours and was like you do not respond to a single comment Don’t put anything in writing Because I mean we the number of screenshots I had I was like How are we being so reckless with our words on the internet knowing that I’m sitting here taking screenshots of everything?

Like I just I thought that was so shocking to me. So she’s not speaking on it at all but I I’ll say also you have to really believe in your product. And that was one thing that Phoebe and I kind of realized, and I’ll admit there was a moment for me, like in that split second, when I saw that there was another podcast with our name that I was like, all right, I guess we just lay down and play dead.

Like I, I, there was a moment where I genuinely believed that was going to be like the end for us. And. I’m an Aries, so I quickly got back into the fight and got over that. Um, but there was a moment and I realized as these people were latching onto this, you know, something to be fired up about, they were also finding our podcast and I believed so much in our show and our product that I was like, if people just find us, they will stay.

I know they will because we have something great here and, and this community is proof of that. And so that’s ultimately what happened. And we, and we did gain a ton of new listenership from this and it’s been amazing and it has only reinforced how much we love and believe in what we’re doing. But I think like, if I hadn’t spoken up and made that video and made a big stink of it, who knows, like they certainly wouldn’t have changed their name.

I mean, we’ll never know if my biggest fear would have happened, but I do suspect that it would have happened because even now when you Google us, that’s what comes up, you know? So it’s like, but. Again, I do believe the product speaks for itself. So I think you have to really believe in your product because otherwise, how are you going to speak up and stand on that?

You know, like you have to know it’s good. And number two, I think what Phoebe said, fostering that community from the get go, like getting that started and being approachable and being somebody that people want to root for, because if you’re not, you’re not going to be quite as lucky and I think shout it from the rooftops, like don’t stop fighting.

Because if not for you, there are. The whole reason we’re talking to you, like there are a million other people who go through this and are not as lucky as we were. And Victoria is a great example of that, you know? And like, so we got connected because of this, I think rely on your community, like reach out, ask people for advice.

Don’t be too proud to do that. We really met a lot of awesome people in the podcasting world and. It opened a ton of doors for us. So I just think in that moment and that like 24 hour firestorm you have, you cannot rest and wait and think of a plan. Like you kind of have to be impulsive and just, and just fight for it and believe that that’s going to be enough.

Akua: I love that. Love that so much. You have to believe in what it is that you’ve created, right? Because if stuff does hit the fan, like that’s your time where you have to. to stand, like be grounded in who you are, why you started doing what you’re doing and fight for it. And I think again, it just really shows as business owners, as creators, influencers to advocate for yourself because you have no, nobody else is going to do it for you.

We had a past episode with Shea Cochran and she said, like, nobody’s coming to save you in your business. Nobody is. Right. And so you have to, you have to fight for it, especially with them that you believe in everything that you’ve poured your heart and soul into it. And don’t be afraid to ask for help really leaning on the people and the fact that you got connected down to Victoria to where your story is also to helping her in any capacity, despite the fact that the circumstances are slightly different, there’s so many other business owners and creators that are literally getting their intellectual property stolen.

And so I think, again, it’s just the point of, don’t be afraid to, uh, I like call people, people out. I just don’t think that there’s anything wrong with that. I think accountability can be such a beautiful thing. And there is a, um, a business owner and she blew up. She’s huge now. But one thing I love about her, she openly admits that she stole something that she did, that she copied from somebody from a different business owner, literally all her content and the business owner called her out.

And so it was all that accountability that prompted her to change that now she went back and did some deep soul searching and then. Launched her business where it’s her own content that she’s now a successful multiple six figure business owner. 

Caroline: That’s the other thing, you know, cancel culture definitely exists and people definitely get mad and they will, you know, it’ll feel like everyone is against you, but I think usually like if you do the right thing, people are willing to change their minds.

People are willing to be convinced that, you know, they, they ultimately, we want to believe the best in people. So I think like, that’s a great example of like, if, if. These two creators that we were trying to, you know, talk to in a civil way, if they had from the get go been like, Oh my God, we did not realize.

And wow, this is not a good look for us in, even if they had said, you know, we’re not going to change it, but that’s how they had reacted. This whole thing would have been so different, you know? And, and I think. One of these creators who is super controversial and has a lot of, you know, sort of, like, marks against her, I think, with the public, there’s been no accountability for anything and it’s like, well, and now when you’re in a situation like this, it’s really hard, it’s hard to win, it’s hard for people to want to root for you because where was the accountability with X, Y, and Z before, you know, and so I think that really matters, like, it, it, Doing the right thing is not overrated.

I think it will get you better results in the long run, even if it’s hard. 

Phoebe: And I think sometimes. Barring certain extenuating circumstances, it’s typically not too late to do the right thing. 

Caroline: So I 

Phoebe: think that like, with Victoria’s situation, again just using that as an example, now the podcast has been uploaded with the same name, it seems like she’s not gonna back down, but I don’t think I would necessarily in a year still hold it against her if she did now decide to Sit down and do the right thing again though Like if 

Caroline: you believe in your product and your product is really as good as you say it isn’t gonna matter If you change your name like it is not gonna matter because those people will be there and they will follow you anywhere So and it 

Phoebe: might it might bring more people like if she were to change the name at this point It may be an opportunity for her to now find more people because look, now, now I have this, this thing on my resume of I did the right thing and I champion small creators and I am for the girls and everything like that.

I think that it, it’s honestly a missed opportunity in my opinion. Yeah. 

Akua: I agree. Yes. Um, that just, it’s just so useful and just like a good, just a good reminder of business owners. Number one, protect what you’ve built to the best of your, uh, ability. Also, two, we don’t have control over everything. So when it does hit the fan, you know what I mean?

Really advocating for yourself, but also look Come from a place of curiosity as well, of like, look of like, what opportunities can this bring to you in this season? Like, I just saw a social media post from Jasmine Starr and she put like, you know, if like, she was saying all these negative experiences, she’s like, well, it’s happening for you.

You’re really changing that mindset to where like, how can you, really take this and make it something positive where it’s benefiting you. I think that, I think that’s just so many like really key things that you guys have shared throughout your whole experience, especially being a smaller creator and it’s never too late to do the right thing.

And I just think of that, that, um, business owner, like I said, who was very transparent about her journey and took accountability and look at her now where she is successful and people trust her and her product. And like, you know what I mean? I think again, it’s, I think that transparency and honesty is such a beautiful thing and it is truly such a gift and, and, you know, I, we obviously talk about cancel culture, of course, but however, I think when people do take that accountability and use that to fuel them to create something that is their own, something that is original, I think that’s going to make them go way, way further than, you know, just not saying anything.

And I think that’s, you know, instead of shying away from, from, you know, the backlash and the feedback. 

Caroline: Right. 100%. I think it’s so. So true. Like, what did they say? Never waste a scandal, you know? And like, that’s how we felt about this too, because there were people, you know, and there was another side of it where people thought that we were activating our audience to go bully them and be mean to them and all these things.

And, you know, the truth is we, we didn’t do that. We didn’t have to do that. They did it on their own and we didn’t encourage it. Even we, we actually said, we don’t need you guys to do this. Like we said it on our show everywhere. And I just think. But there was a moment there where I thought, Oh God, this is going to turn the other way on us.

And we’re going to end up looking like the bad guys, but it doesn’t matter. We can’t waste this. This is the most eyes that have been on us. And I just, if we trust that, like we, again, we have a good product and we’re doing the right thing. Like I believed Phoebe believed that us fighting for that was us doing the right thing.

And so. It just didn’t matter. Like we had to do it and make the most of it. And people were commenting, you know, you’re just doing this for the attention and you just want the views. And I was like, uh, yeah, I do want the views. Of course I do. Like, like that’s, if I’m going to go down, I am going to go down fighting.

Like I am not just going to. Lay down. What do you want from me? Like, and I think in the year 2024, let’s stop saying that we’re not looking for views and we’re not looking for likes and we’re not looking for that because that’s how you build a business. Sorry. Like that just is. So I think let’s stop acting like that makes you a villain.

Like that’s a business strategy or that’s how I looked at it. And I will continue to look at it that way because it has not stopped being effective for me. But, uh, yeah, it’s like. Look at what’s happening. If this is my last chance to show up on your for you page, I will be making the most of it.

Akua: I love that. So you’re like, look, if I’m drowning, 

Caroline: you will be watching me do it. Yes. Yes. Yes. 

Akua: Oh my gosh. I love that so much. And I do want to shift the conversation to a little bit because I, you know, like I said, I just find that so interesting, you know, because podcasting it is, it is not an easy thing, right?

It is not an easy thing to do. You guys have built this amazing platform in two years where you are now monetizing your podcast. And so I think, you know, for independent business owners, you know, I think especially in 2020, like podcasting just shot up. And, um, especially for me now, also to being a full time podcaster, not myself, I’m like, Holy smokes, this is a lot, it’s a lot of work.

It’s like you pour your heart and soul into every single episode. What were some monetization strategies that you have seen that have been like, Oh my gosh, like we have something here. Like what are some strategies that you have done to really grow your show, grow your community that has led you now to monetize your show?

Phoebe: I think the first thing that really shocked us was, and this was one of the first moments where we realized that we, maybe we did have a community growing behind us, was we just decided to go out on a limb, we wanted merch for ourselves, and so we put out our first line of merch. Merchandise for the podcast.

And I mean, it sounds silly and like minuscule now, but like even just one person that wasn’t our family buying it, we were like, all right, we have something here. That’s awesome. Um, and now that’s obviously grown into like a genuine monetization stream, which has been pretty incredible. I think along with 

Caroline: that, our Patreon has been huge.

And so, you know, both of the ways that we first monetized our podcast, Like those, the merch and the Patreon were both again, solely relying on like our audience and a community and that sense of like, we want more from you. And so just going back to like why that’s so important at the beginning of your business to start doing that, because when you want to monetize it, you want people to be showing up in droves to help you do so.

And so people knew, you know, I’m buying merch because I want to feel like I’m part of this community and I like the merch and whatever. But I also want to support them. I’m joining the Patreon because I want more content from them. And as the podcast has grown, you know, we talk about other topics and people want to hear that, so we put it on the Patreon, but they’re also doing it because they want to support our business, so I think.

And, and I’m sure there are people who have thought, Oh, this month on the Patreon, you know, I’m not loving any of the themes for the episodes, but I’m not going to cancel my membership because I want to continue to support these creators. So I think those sort of go hand in hand, like the community and monetization in a way in the beginning, because it’s going to take time before you’re offered ads.

It’s going to take time before you’re approached by anyone who wants to help sell your show. So you have to figure out what you can do on your own. I think that’s the best way to, to start out is if you’ve got that community, start thinking about how you can activate them and make sure they’re getting something of value, you know, in return, um, and then depend on that growth to take you to the next income streams, you know.

Akua: Yes, I love that so much. And, you know, and for those listening with Patreon, like, obviously, your show is behind a paywall. And so, were you guys, like, nervous to do that? Because I know, like, some people are like, oh my gosh, like, if people aren’t going to go, or did you just know, like, hey, we knew that immediately, like, our community was at a certain point where we felt confident to now put it behind a paywall.

Phoebe: I think it was that. We had been floating the idea around for a bit before we decided to, like, pull the trigger. Because we were a little bit, like, I think there was part of us. And we’ve kind of, we’ve grown so much in this aspect of, like. Our business, but a part of us was a little bit, we were kind of feeling silly about thinking about it at first.

I think like we were like, what if no one subscribes, what if no one actually wants this from us? So we did kind of plant the seeds and then we waited until someone decided that they were interested and. We went for it and it worked. 

Caroline: We like said on the show all the time, like we, cause we go on tangents, I’m sure you’ve already noticed this about us, but we go on tangents, we get off topic.

And so we would like get off topic a little bit, start talking about something that wasn’t pretty little liars. And we’d be like, Oh, we’ll talk about that on the Patreon before we ever had one. And we were just kind of like joking about it, like, Oh, that’s for the Patreon. And then people started saying, okay, well, where’s the Patreon because I want to hear you talk about that.

And we were like, Oh, they want to hear us talk about other things. Now, you know. Honestly, I feel like for Phoebe and I, one person saying they wanted a Patreon, we’re like, Oh, well, okay! They’re begging! Like, we were like, we have to! Um, but, but we were very pleasantly surprised by how many people joined and continue to join.

That’s, that’s been, um, I think our favorite way of monetizing the show. 

Akua: I love that. I think, again, I think it just speaks to with podcasting is just, again, like really coming from a place of service and putting your community first. And so once you really have, and I think that, and I think some ways to even do that, I think it’s just simple of consistency, right?

Like where you have really built that trust, like you’re showing up, people are expecting that episode to come every single week at the same time, even if it’s an episode they may not necessarily want to listen to that week, right? Like there’s so many, again, you’re showing up the next week again to, you know, you’re Really just provide something for all of your listeners and really putting your people first, right?

And I love that too. Just even simple as like just creating some merchandise. Let’s just see how that’s gonna go of like again You’re building you’re creating a feeling right? Like I have never seen pretty little liars But I’m like, hey, like I would love to be part of this community because yeah the feeling that you’re creating from that, right?

That’s where a great way where people can now become interested in the show, watching the show because they can listen to your podcast. You know what I mean? And again, it’s, I think that’s the main piece that I really want business owners to take of a lot of the times is you’re selling a feeling before you’re selling a product.

So really leaning into those emotional aspects of what you want your buyer to do, like what, how you want them to feel. And you guys really have created this camaraderie, right? Of belonging and purpose and something, something fun for people to really lean into. And so therefore, when shit does hit the fan, people like, We ride at dawn, 

Caroline: creating 

Akua: that loyal, loyal following.

And then from there, you’re like, okay, Ben, right. How can we monetize it? And I feel like that kind of saying that, but again, it’s like, how can people support it? Right. And I think that’s more so that people are so, so excited to support. What you guys have created in all aspects from, you know, scandal when people stealing your name to, okay, like I want to wear this merch or, oh my gosh, I’m patron because we’re multifaceted human beings.

So people want to know more about you and who you are. And so I think that’s just, just, you guys have naturally just done it in a way that has been just amazing. And I think, again, those are like some really key takeaways that business owners can walk away with. 

Phoebe: Thank you. That’s 

Akua: so 

Phoebe: good 

Akua: to hear. 

Phoebe: Very reassuring.

Akua: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And so, how has this experience just shaped you in the future of your show? I mean, what are you guys most looking forward to? Um, so yeah. I think primarily, 

Phoebe: the best thing is To me so far has just been like you were talking about and how you’re selling a feeling before you’re selling a product That can be hard for a while in the beginning of a business because that’s not necessarily Tangible and it’s not a number or a statistic Um that you’re seeing in front of you.

So when this happened Getting to see the support and what felt like a more tangible way, really like revitalized my ambition and my belief in what we were doing. Cause I think, you know, it can feel again, I keep saying silly, but like, I can, you feel kind of silly coming up in conversation being like, yeah, well me and my sister have a podcast and yes, we talk about pretty little liars and like, it doesn’t, people don’t get it.

Like people don’t, it’s hard to. Really sell it sometimes to people like in person. So it’s been cool to have this thing now and be like, look, we’ve actually created like this really fruitful business, honestly, it’s been really exciting. 

Caroline: I think also it’s really hard to activate people to do something. So, you know, they’re listening.

That’s great. That’s a passive activity. It is very difficult to, you know, get them to go to Apple podcasts if they’re listening on Spotify and leave us a rating because that’s the platform where you can write something and that really, really helps us. So like, you know, Getting those, it’s, it’s difficult.

And so I think there, there are going to be people who do it the first time you say it, and there are going to be people who don’t do it until they hear you say it the 10th time after they already love what you’re doing and they have something to say about it. So that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s It’s just hard to motivate people to do things like that, but that was really neat because when it happens and you see it and it’s no longer just a feeling, it’s so exciting for the future for us.

We’re in the process of migrating over to a network, which is really exciting. That was one of our goals for this year. So, you know, we’re still completely a hundred percent on our own creating it, but they’re just going to help us sell our show and, and kind of build that monetization aspect, which is super, super exciting.

I have gotten in touch with a lot of creators. We actually, there’s a podcast called Gilmore to say with, uh, Tara Llewellyn and it’s a Gilmore girls rewatch show. Our producer, Haley 

Akua: is going to love it because she’s obsessed with Gilmore girls. Oh my God. No way. Oh, 

Caroline: my God. Totally. Listen, it’s. They have a great show and we got connected with Tara.

She reached out to us during this and we now call her our podcast, Fairy Godmother, because she truly like, I mean, definition of sisterhood and like helping each other out. I mean, she has given me so much information and introduced me to people and helped guide us through some business decisions. Like we, you know, when this all happened, we had a lot of eyes on us.

We had a lot of. Avenues we could have taken and now looking back, I’m like, Oh my God. If we had gone with this one road, like, Ooh, we would have been in such a pickle. I’m so glad we had someone who knows more than us, you know, who could tell us like we’re, we are not too proud to admit that we have no clue what we’re doing, but we’re learning every day, like you said, and.

I mean, just, I feel like I’m operating on a whole other like playing field in terms of the conversations I’m having now and the concepts that I understand that were totally foreign to me before. And just, you know, it’s like a never ending to do list and it has really become more of, it’s become more of a substantial workload, but the goal has always been that one day this might be the only thing we have to do to earn money, you know, that’s of course the goal.

And so any. Moments where we ever felt like, Oh, we don’t want to ask our listeners for money. We don’t want to put this behind a paywall. We feel bad making them pay money. A lot of them are like teenagers. Like, I mean, you know, we don’t, but that’s always the goal. And if they want us to continue doing this and making this show that they love so much, and if they want to see us achieve our goals, then they’re going to be excited to do it.

And I think that’s been. What’s awesome. Like we just see so much promise ahead. There’s so many exciting new endeavors that we weren’t aware of that. Now we are, we have goals that we didn’t even think would ever be attainable that now we can set for the next year. So I just think there’s been so many.

Wonderful, wonderful things that have come out of this. And the reality is both of our podcasts are existing in the world at the same time, and we’re offering very different things and time has shown that, you know, the podcast came out and it turns out if you’re looking for a certain thing, you might not get it from them.

You might not get it from us. You might have to go to the other one. And so that has been nice, but. If anything, this whole experience has just like really reassured us and reinforced that we’re where we need to be. And like, this is the right thing. And there’s just so much out there that we’re excited to do and learn and, and all that, including this, like talking to you.

It was so exciting for us. So, yeah. 

Akua: Oh my gosh. I love that so much. And I think again, just coming from that place of abundance and just no scarcity, right? Like, again, just that abundant thinking. And I think, again, it just goes to show with business owners, like. You just start because you just really have no idea, um, and, and where things will lead you.

Cause you’re like, Hey, we’re learning as we’re going, like, even right now, like you’re like, we didn’t think that this could be a monetized podcast. We found these strategies to monetize, but, and that has taken us to the next level. So now we’re learning now, um, what’s next for us and how to monetize. And I think, again, it just talks about the beauty of entrepreneurship, just to take the step, even if you don’t see the whole staircase, right?

I think that was Martin Luther King. That’s on that. I’m like, I don’t, I think it was, but you know what I mean? I think it’s just those types of. Things of like, you’re never ever going to see the whole picture. So just take the step and just take it one step at a time. Because I mean, I think you guys have just shown like a really beautiful journey of what it is of doing something that you love and how you’ve been able to, uh, turn it into a business essentially.

And so I, we are absolutely rooting for you. And so a question that we’d love to end with, which I would love both of you to answer is what do you think is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail? Phoebe, I’ll have you go first. 

Phoebe: I think that it comes down to like, we’ve been saying this whole.

time is that you really do have to believe in what you’re pushing. And. It’s kind of like that field of dreams vibe of like, if you build it, they will come. Like if you believe it, I, I don’t even think I’ve watched that movie all the way through, but I do. I know that. Yeah. My dad would be so mad, but I’ve never, I’ve never really seen it, but I’ve seen that scene and I do like find myself kind of coming back to it with all we’ve been doing of like, we’ve really just believed in what we were doing and we were consistent.

That’s another thing. Like We just, we, we did what we said we were going to do. And now we’re starting to reap the benefits. It might take some people a month. It might take some people five years. It just really depends. And if you believe in it, then those five years will be worth it. Or that one month will be worth it.

I think that would be people that people that can’t put in that consistency. They’re not going to be able to reap, uh, what, what there’s, or they will reap what they’re selling. I guess if they’re not selling anything. They will. They sure will. 

Caroline: Phoebe, is that a threat? Phoebe took the words out of my mouth.

I, I was like so pumped when you started saying that, that, you know, really believing in what you’re doing. I was like, yes, we’re on different vibes. And then you said consistency. Cause that was what I was going to say is I think consistency as the biggest game changer Especially in the world of podcasting.

I mean, Apple podcast is like a podcast graveyard from 2020, all these projects that were started and, and stopped almost immediately, you know, and, and that’s fine. You know, you, if we had done this podcast for, we recorded, I think before we released, we recorded like three or four episodes just to have ready to go, and if that had been all we ever did, I still think it would have been really fun, but the reality of it is for me and Phoebe, like we, our dad’s a Marine and we grew up with the saying, Connell’s don’t say can’t.

And we were not allowed to say can’t growing up. And that is sort of how like Phoebe and I were like, we’re not going to do something. That’s not going to. We’re not going to embarrass ourselves here. We’re not going to not be successful, but we’re going to define our idea of success. And for us, like you have to constantly redefine that.

And I tell people this all the time for us, I think in the beginning, success was having 10 listeners, you know? And that was like, great. That was enough for us to move the goalposts and continue on with that same consistency. Now using those 10 listeners as motivation and fuel, like, okay. Uh, you know, before this, we were doing it and we didn’t have any listeners.

Now we have 10. That’s enough to make us want to go a little bit farther. And I think just continuing to move those goalposts and continuing to believe in what you’re doing. And if you are doing a podcast with someone and it isn’t working, or you’re doing a podcast and you realize, Oh, this topic that I’m talking about, I’m not really passionate about it.

Change it, change it so that you will be consistent because ultimately, if you are not sold on what you’re doing, you’re not going to stick with it. And I think Phoebe and I just both went in with this mindset that like, we were going to create something and we were going to really, really stick to it and like, Be consistent because there wasn’t another option for us.

We were not going to like fail, you know, but we had to decide what success was going to be and then continue to move that goalpost. So I think consistency and just like always reevaluating your situation and. And moving that goalpost and being realistic, but also being like, you know, having, being a dreamer.

It’s, it’s important. I set a goal this year that I thought was not attainable and that was joining a network. And now we are. So, um, you know, I, I was afraid to say things out loud because I don’t like to set a goal and have it not happen. It feels like I’m setting myself up for failure, but I did it. And, you know, like they said, if you build it, they will come.

We really. Kept the consistency up and the, and the passion behind what we were doing. And I think together it’s just a recipe for success. 

Akua: Yes. I mean, you guys are great. I have loved this conversation. It has been so fun. Thank you. Thank you. You know what I mean? Just for sharing your experience just as creators.

I think again, it’s really fun to have people from different industries come and share their experience. So I’m just so, so grateful. And for people that want to connect with you and your show. Drop it right here right now. Tell us where we can find you. Awesome. 

Caroline: So you can search us. We are streaming anywhere you listen to podcasts.

It is the pretty little podcast. Uh, you can search our names to Caroline Connell, Phoebe Connell on Instagram, our podcast or our handle is the pretty little podcast and the O and podcast is a zero on Tik TOK. We are the pretty little podcast. Yeah. I think we’re on Patreon. We’re on Etsy. Yeah. 

Akua: Covered it.

For sure. Listen 

Caroline: to our podcast. That’s the biggest. 

Akua: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Caroline and Phoebe. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I loved this conversation and for everybody listening until next time. Thank you. Thank you. That ends our episode of the independent business podcast.

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