How to maintain friendships and handle conflict at work

Akua: In life and in business, we have to navigate all different types of relationships. And today on the podcast, I’m so excited to have Danielle Bayer Jackson, friend, educator, publicist, and author of the book, fighting for our friendships. She joins us on the show and we talk about all the things. From how to navigate friendships as a business owner, how to deal with conflict, and how we can set ourselves up for success when it comes to building meaningful relationships in our business and beyond this conversation was so much fun and so refreshing.

And I know you’ll enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Now let’s get into the episode. Hey everyone. This is your host Akua Konadu and you’re listening to the Independent Business Podcast. More people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I get to sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs, and creators to break down the science of self made success so that you can achieve it too.

Oh,

Danielle, how are we doing? 

Danielle: I am doing great. How are you? 

Akua: I’m good. Number one. I got to give you a huge shout out. Congratulations. And you were on your book tour, the launch of your new book. Yeah. And, um, we are just so stoked. Thanks for stopping by through all of the craziness. I’m sure this season has been for you.

Danielle: It has been hectic, but it’s been good. I was most excited about this part, getting the book out into people’s hands, connecting with them over the, you know, during the book tour. So it’s been a really, really fun time. 

Akua: Yes. Oh, we’re so excited to have you here because I think obviously friendships is so important.

And I’m also like, let’s also to lean into also business friendships. I feel like we don’t ever have those conversations enough. And I think it’s a really interesting place to navigate. But before we even get into that, I’m so interested to know just what led to that shift because I knew about you years ago.

You were on my Friend Laylee’s podcast way back in the day. Oh, wow. Yes. Yes. That’s how I knew of you. So that’s a 

Danielle: throwback. 

Akua: Throwback. And so what exactly led to that shift where you’re, and I think you still do PR, but where you’re like, okay, I’m focusing on. Friendships. Female friendships. Like, what did that season of life look like for you?

Danielle: Yeah. So I started off as a high school teacher, did that for six years, became the academic chair, and it was the number one thing students wanted to talk about. It’s the number one thing that teachers wanted to talk about during staff meetings regarding students and the classroom dynamics because it was impacting instruction so much.

And then after I left the classroom, I got into public relations. So I found myself working with these charismatic, high achieving women only to learn that it They too were privately struggling in their friendships, but you’re not going to lead with that when you’re, you know, boss babe or whatever it is, because it detracts from the image you’re trying to project of being self sufficient and having it together.

You know, now I am full time, a friendship educator. So I travel and speak on the science of women’s stories. Friendship, connection, and conflict. And we, you know, I really began leaning into this space because it blew up. Honestly, I was doing this and PR, but this took off. And so it was kind of like, okay, let’s just lean in here.

But most of my clients are entrepreneurial women who, Run the house they run the business. They are high achievers And I think it surprises most people because when you hear friendship coach you imagine it’s some socially awkward person And while that person’s still in my roster most of the women i’m working with are high achieving entrepreneurs 

Akua: That is wild to think about but then like as an entrepreneur like It totally makes sense because as business owners, we wear many hats.

We are by ourselves. And then even as we’re growing our team, and of course you’re still delegating, but you’re still by yourself. Like a lot of, I find myself all the time where like, I’m always talking about my business. That’s all I focus on. And so I can see how like those certain areas where our friendships are, are neglected.

But it is, it is very surprising because you do have in your mind that, okay, like this person, specific person looks a certain way that struggled with friendships, but it’s everybody, everybody struggles with friendships in some type of capacity. It’s not, it’s something that it doesn’t matter, age, anything, background.

It truly, truly does. And so what were some of the key things that when you saw a lot of these high achieving business owners, you said to that you even saw this too with even high school students, what were some of the common threads of why people were struggling to build friendships? 

Danielle: Yeah. I’m glad you asked that question because sometimes people will ask me, they’ll say, well, you know, what’s the biggest difference between working with teenagers and adults?

And I’m like, nothing, nothing, 

Akua: nothing adult. The problems just get, they’re just different. I was literally just talking about somebody, the girl who does my eyebrows. I went to go talk with her about that yesterday because I was like, girl, when I, in my twenties, like all the crazy stories I had, and now I’m in my thirties, the stories are still crazy.

Now you just got a husband and kids. 

Danielle: That’s right. I always say that maybe the details change, but from what I’ve observed and experienced at the heart of the matter, that the issues are the same, a fear of rejection, wanting to find people who get you, wanting to express your love platonically without being seen as, as too much or too clingy, wanting to make friends, to reflect back to you where you are in this season.

I mean, at the heart of it, no matter what your age is, wanting Those things are the same, and so the details are different, but I think we’re all looking for the same things. 

Akua: Yes. And so I’m really, I’m really interested about you as well as somebody who is a friendship educator. And I, even myself right now, and I’m sure if you’re listening to this, there’s no shame if you got this, but I’m like, Oh yeah, she must have like the perfect friendship.

Like she’s like, she’s Gucci. She has all the answers. Yeah. And so I’m like, I would love to know how have you viewed friendships, like, especially now that you know, like there’s a science behind it, like you have done all the study, all the research, but with you and like your personal relationships as a business owner, as an author, as a, uh, you know, a mom, a wife, like how, what are your friendships look like?

Like how have they evolved? 

Danielle: Yeah, I do get that question or assumption a lot. Um, I’ll even have sometimes on social media, people will comment and be like, Oh my gosh, I want to be your friend. And I think to myself, like. If you only knew, if you only knew, and I will say like, you know, sure, you can’t do this work and study this research and not have your personal relationships unchanged by what you’re learning.

And I have my issues with friends like anybody else. I would say the main difference though, since doing this work is I feel so much braver as a person. I feel brave. I feel brave in my friendships. I feel courageous to address an issue where before maybe I wouldn’t have said anything because I know what the research says around healthy conflict being a prerequisite to platonic intimacy, how it brings you closer.

So I feel brave. I feel brave to follow up with a woman who I’m curious about. If I think, you know, Oh, she seems cool. I feel brave to be like, Hey, I loved. Talking to you, we should totally get together. Whereas before, maybe I would have talked to myself out of it. Or I would have been like, ah, well she’s, she’s busy.

She was just being polite. I feel courageous. And I, I think it comes with knowing a lot of the technical knowledge around fear of rejection, belonging, attachment has made me a much more courageous friend and I’ve definitely seen the payoff from that. 

Akua: Yes. Oh, I love that so much. Like you feel more brave.

And I think we sometimes just discredit ourselves of how hard it is. It really is to maintain friendships and the work that you have poured in. Like it is, it takes bravery to fight for friendship. It takes bravery to show up even in times of when it’s hard. It takes bravery, even when it’s uncomfortable, it takes bravery to meet new friends.

Um, you know what I mean? And I, I love your outlook on that. And so I think, especially if you’re a business owner, that’s listening to this, just encouraging you, like even the friendship that you do have, it takes bravery. Brave like you’re brave for being in this relationship. And so you, you briefly touched on conflict, which I feel like in business conflict arises in so many different ways as a business owner.

And I think you don’t ever realize where you’re at in relationships and just in life in general, until conflict arises. And I feel like, you know, and yes, it happens in business and life, whatever, but I feel like, you know, they’re, they’re interwoven. Like, it just, like, there’s things that happen in business all the time that I’m like, Oh, I need to work on that in therapy, where I’m like, Um, okay.

I guess I’m learning a life lesson in the middle of this. And so I’m so curious to know of how do you handle conflict as business owners? Especially if it’s like, I think of business owners who are friends. co founders. And one thing that I learned is like 65 percent of businesses fail due to co founder conflict, which I was like, damn, like, Yikes.

Yes. I was so shocked by that. And then also to like, I also owned a product based business called the Monaco. It’s a gift subscription business. And it’s with my mom and conflict honey has gone up. It’s rough. And I was like, we might be in that statistic. So anyways, but it’s tough. It’s really tough. So I guess when you think of that, when you hear that number, how do you, like, how do we as business owners, how can we deal with conflict, especially if we are in business with somebody close to us, whether that be a friend, a family member, you know, a spouse even, what are, how do we, what are the best healthy ways to really navigate conflict?

Cause it’s inevitable to your point. 

Danielle: A hundred percent. I mean any human relationship, you’re gonna have that and you know, the first thing I’ll say is this I know sometimes we think about conflict some people conjure up an image of you know We’re fussing and fighting and flipping tables, but it just means that you know I as my own person and bringing my personal goals Needs, desires, boundaries, preferences to the table.

And so are you. At some point, don’t we think there’s going to be a clash of competing interests or, or whatever it is when we come together, it is inevitable. And so I think a lot of us have underdeveloped conflict resolution skills. Even myself, I’m still working on that because I have my ego and, and sensitivities and things that come out.

Right. And so I think a couple of things. If we’re trying to stay friends or stay in that healthy relationship and preserve it alongside the business, you know, first running a business itself is really hard. Now when I have to go and consult another person for every little thing and we have different goals, it’s even harder.

So a couple of things that can help. One is if you’re getting into a business with a friend is to front load that experience by saying the number one thing to me is this friendship. This business, I hope it’s successful, but this relationship is, is, is important to me, which sounds kind of cheesy and fluffy, but from the very beginning, I’m showing you a certain layer of security.

You come first. And so I always want to draw back to that. Now we can kind of go into this business venture and whenever conflicts arise, that, that sentiment that I expressed the first time almost buffers the tensions that come with the conflict because I already established a certain layer of security.

You are first for me. This is important to me. Let’s not let this business come between us. So you can almost extend the benefit of the doubt to me whenever there is tension. Cause it’s like, well, I already know she has my best interest at her. I already know she does not want to lose this, this friendship and puts this first that helps.

And then the second thing is to. Always be communicating. And a lot of times we make assumptions, especially around people we know. Well, ironically, the more I know you, the more I’m assuming, cause I already know you. So I know you meant this when you said that I know what you really meant. So we tend to extend less grace to the people we’re closest to.

Cause it’s like, I know you. So how can I have more conversations around, Hey, you know, I really want to do this with the business, the season. I know you want to do this, you know, let’s figure this out. This is important to me. Or, uh, as long as we, Get this, I’m okay with flexing on the details. So how can we figure out and negotiate?

What are the things that are must haves? What are the things that are preferences? How can we communicate explicitly? Hey, as long as we have ABC, I guess I’m okay with one, two and three looking different. Like, how can I come to you with that? Um, but it is a constant, constant conversation. And I know for some people that can be a lot.

Akua: Oh yeah, it’s hard. I mean, you know what I mean? And especially like with my business, like it’s expanding, like my brother has come on, which has been really fun and him and I get along very, very well. But, uh, and my mom, I love her to death. It’s just like, it’s really interesting where you have to, again, it’s like pivoting, like we’re not mother daughter, we’re now business owners.

And so, and it’s been hard, but it’s been good. Like there’s been so many fruitful things that have really strengthened our relationship as mother and daughter, but also to his business owner. But it is tough. There has been seasons where I’m like, Oh my gosh, like, can we honestly do this? But to your point, I think it was like when we got a lot more formal of like having that things in place, having those pieces of communication, like, that, you know, and I think that that is just so, so key.

It’s true. Like when you’re like, Oh yeah, like, My mom’s like, well, I know you. I’m like, yes, you do. But like, you’re my mother, but like, you know what I mean? Come on. But I, I just know that there’s so many other business owners that they’re not even in business, like, you know, with their family, but also to like, they have really good friendships.

And I’ve seen like, even right now there are conversations where business owners, like they are struggling right now. So I think that is such an important and important thing to highlight. And so you also talked about too, just like some of that conflict resolution and I’ll have a lot of us in the chat.

Like, as adults in general, don’t really have a lot of those skills and techniques. And you said you’re even navigating that yourself. So what are some of those techniques that we can really just start applying? Like, what are some steps that we can just really use to start moving forward? 

Danielle: Yeah, well, there’s some research that suggests that the number one thing that makes a person more inclined to listen to you during an argument is if they feel that you’re attempting to listen to them.

It’s the number one thing that’s going to make them listen to you. So I love taking the research and figuring out, okay, so how can I use this? What’s practical, right? So if I’m getting into it with a friend of a co founder, how can I demonstrate actively that I’m making attempts to hear you and understand you?

I might not agree, but what phrases can I say? What things can I say to show you I’m listening and I’m really trying to understand your perspective. Cause Once they are convinced of that, they will now hear me. And if my goal is for them to receive what I’m saying, then I might have to kind of bend a little bit to say, okay, so I, I hear you saying this is, is that right?

You know, even that clarifying statement I am really trying to understand or to offer things like, okay, well that’s a good point. I never thought of it that way. And now I can come in with, you know, but I still stand by this, but I never considered that, you know, so that’s the first thing during tense conversations is the research shows the number one thing that makes them listen to you is if they feel well listened to.

So that’s first. The second thing is to have some vulnerability and that doesn’t necessarily mean, you know, crying and it has to be a whole thing. But What is the thing you’re scared of saying? Because it feels risky. So that might be admitting you were wrong. That might be admitting you need help. That might be admitting that you don’t know everything, but it feels really risky because you don’t want to look incompetent.

You don’t want them to have power over you. Whatever that thing is you’re holding on to because you’re trying to maintain a certain appearance. I challenge you to let that go and to say, Hey, you know, um, I made a mistake. I definitely overlooked XYZ, and I think that’s why we’re in this situation, and I’m really, really sorry, but I don’t want to take this route moving forward, and I know you do.

I really don’t, and here are the reasons why, you know, so how can I lead with this. The things that feel like a risk are the most vulnerable things. And people tend to really soften to that and are receptive to that. Um, and finally, whenever you’re having a back and forth conversation, you know, stick with the things that are very tangible.

So we won’t say things like, I just feel like you’ve been having an attitude. I feel like you don’t want to. Those things are very elusive. I’m going to point to very specifics. Hey, I know we were communicating pretty regularly every day, but since our tense conversation, we haven’t spoken. Help me understand what’s going on.

Instead of like, I feel like you’re being distant. I feel like, can I be really specific? And then can we end our conversation by collaboratively figuring out what we’re doing moving forward together so that we’re not just going in circles. At some point we have to figure out, okay, so with all this data that we put on the table, Moving forward, what do we want to do?

Or moving forward, what can we do to make sure this doesn’t happen again? Because it makes both people feel secure, will listen to, and remind us that we’re on the same team. 

Akua: Oh my gosh, I love that. So many tangible things that you can walk away with. And I think too, I think of that this can absolutely transcend into other areas of your business.

I think too, when you’re dealing with clients and you’re in potential conflict, there are certain things that you can absolutely carry with that. And that’s the, that’s so uncomfortable too, but I think again, like, I love that where you, the number one thing to make people listen to you is to like, you What, listen to them, like really make sure that you’re being intentional in that.

And I think, especially if you have clients that, you know, um, if you are a web designer and they’re not exactly liking necessarily what you’ve created. I mean, how can you really make sure that you’re doing that active listening and making sure that they’re heard and feeling seen so that you guys are having a much better client experience?

Like, how can you communicate to where those expectations are just very clear among both parties? I think again, like those things are just so, so important. So valuable and just so key. And another thing that I’m really curious about within that is, do you see a difference between friendships? Like, cause I do, and I would love to know your thoughts on it.

I’ve like, okay, I have my friends outside of my business and then I have my industry friends. And do you see a big difference between that? Like, how do you navigate those, uh, those different types of friendships? 

Danielle: Yeah. Okay. So I love this question so much because I love talking about relational diversity and relational diversity just means different kinds of friends.

So the research finds that people who have relational diversity and their friendships, uh, greater wellbeing than people who do not. So if you have mom, friend, entrepreneur, friends, happy hour, friends, church, friends, gym friends, you are probably More satisfied with life than the person who just has business friends.

And I can’t stress that enough because what happens is so many of us become totally absorbed and consumed by work and all of our relationships are work based and there are so many benefits having friends at work, like totally important. However, we need to kind of like feather out the other aspects of our identity.

So one exercise I like to do with clients is, you know, how would you describe yourself by completing a statement? I am blank, whatever that is. So for me, it would be, I am black. I am a mom. I am a creative. I am a et cetera, et cetera. Am I in communities? For each one of those aspects of my identity so that I can feel affirmed.

I feel seen I feel validated But in those various aspects of my identity and I just knew that entrepreneurship is so consuming that sometimes all we have Is people who we share this specific thing with and that’s okay But i’m just saying for overall life satisfaction and sense of understanding and affirmation.

We got to have other things so I do believe in having Our work friends, it’s super important to have entrepreneur friends who just get it. I know I’m frustrated when I try to talk business stuff with non entrepreneur friends and they like give suggestions and you’re thinking like, okay, they’re trying to help, but like they don’t get it, you know?

So like it helps to have entrepreneur friends, but you know, being really sure about the context, are we work friends and what are any boundaries around that? You know, are we work friends where this is kind of our base of how we were introduced to one another, but we’re curious. It’s about each other in other ways.

Like I’m curious about introducing like, Hey, can we go to the gym together after this? Can we talk about spirituality? Should I want to pursue other contexts with this friend? But it’s also okay if I decide, Oh, it looks like we only have the capacity to go here, And she adds value to my life in this way.

So I’m just going to stay here. So it’s kind of up to us to do the work and have the discernment for, is she my work slash spiritual slash gym friend, or do we work best as entrepreneur friends? And I have certain boundaries around that and we both understand, and it feels good to us both. Um, I’m curious about your experience.

What does that look like for you? That, that separation and your different friend types? 

Akua: Oh my gosh, it’s hard to separate. It’s been so tough like and it’s so funny because one of my closest friends, um, and it’s been truly a blessing, but I met her in business. And now I mean, not only does she pour into my business, but she pours into my life.

So we talk about anything and everything. And I feel like slowly, um, A lot of industry friends that I’ve met. It’s slowly now starting to pour into more personal, which I love. Like I get the best of both worlds, which has been amazing. Um, but I actually just moved to Chicago about nine months ago and I know nobody here.

So that has also been Uh, another added layer for me where I have, like, no friends here. All of my friends are predominantly now outside of the states. So everybody that I’m talking to, and my sister, she’s one of my best friends, but, like, everything I’m talking to does not live locally to me. So now I have this added layer of, like, loneliness.

of trying to navigate of like that more in person communication. So now I’ve been traveling more to spend time with those friends. However, but it’s still hard. You know what I mean? Trying to, to figure out now, what does that look like? But I have been lucky enough to where like these, and it did not happen overnight.

Like it truly has been like, years in the making. Like friends, this one friend, we’ve been friends for five years and now our season of life looks very different. You know, with me being in a different state, she’s now married, you know, and I’m single and I moved to Chicago because a lot more singles are here, you know what I mean?

And, and just like that. So it’s been really, it’s Interesting, but we continue to show up for each other like, okay, look this season is really hard But let’s make sure we get this on the calendar of like a zoom call for 30 minutes or sometimes I try to be intentional Like just calling her randomly and like even if she doesn’t answer it’s like hey, I know you’re busy You don’t need to come back.

I just hope things all things are well I think a lot of it too is also really managing a lot of expectations because also too in my season of life with where i’m at of This is a capacity and I have to be very honest with myself with what capacity I’m at as a friend. And so I always just make sure to really keep that communication open, but also to managing expectations that people are human.

And I, I just, and let me know if this is right or wrong, but I’m like, people are human. So I just don’t try to have these high expectations. Like life is hard. Being an adult is hard. Um, so everybody’s doing the best that they can. So even when people are like, I can’t be there for you in this capacity. I’m okay with that.

I’m like, you know, I’m like, how do I Continue to pour into myself to do the things that I feel good but then also to like Okay, if that person can’t like pour into me right now Where else can I go or who else can I go to and I think again? It’s just like keeping that communication open At all times, but I will say I have struggled a lot with conflict within friendships.

It’s really tough, especially sometimes with those disappointments. Like if things haven’t been met and it’s natural, it’s absolutely natural. But I think it’s still sometimes staying. So, you know what I mean? And I’m trying to be like, okay, how do I have these honest conversations? So I think even with those conflict resolution tips that you have shared have already been like, I’m like, all right, like I.

Already am now starting to navigate that but I just kind of like unloaded a lot on you, but that’s where 

Danielle: No, I I love it. And I I appreciate you sharing your experience and where you are right now Yeah moving to a different city. That is tough socially Yeah, it’s really tough and you know The research tells us that we tend to replace half of our friends every seven years And so to some degree there’s going to be like a natural friendship pruning that just happens And not because there was some kind of egregious betrayal, but it might be You A little bit of out of sight, out of mind, or we started having, you know, adopting different lifestyles and we realized, Oh, it’s kind of hard to know what to talk to you about.

And yes, so we talk less, you know, so those things account for a lot of our friendship dissolution is like kind of these fade outs, but nothing explicitly negative happened, but there’s going to be like a natural churn. But when people are in new cities. They’re especially open to like, okay, I’m here. I’m open to new connections, which I love.

And, you know, to your point about, you know, understanding that everybody has their own thing going on, that is so true from, from what I’ve seen is as long as you’re being honest with yourself, About your needs, because I know there’s this whole conversation around low maintenance friendships, I have, I have strong feelings on that, but I just feel like as long as you’re being honest about what you really need, and so to some degree, you’re right, we have to be flexible, people have things going on, but if there’s also a party that’s like, man, but it would be nice to like, Have friendships that are a little more integrated into my life.

Like I like the idea of, of regularly being like, girl, what’s going on? I like the idea of having local friends who like, we do things on the weekends together. I like the idea of having somebody in my life who I could call and be like, Oh shoot, I don’t think I turned off my iron. Can you go by and get my key?

Like I want friendships like that, you know? So as long as we’re being honest about the kind of friendships I really envisioned for myself and the fact that I know I need to give grace to you. Be able to say that to friends to be able to say like, yeah, I’m in a season where I’m kind of like, you know, really pouring into friendships right now.

That’s top of mind for me. Like even to say it when meeting new friends, you know, and I know sometimes that feels like, Oh, do I come off clingy or whatever? But I think if the, an organic moment comes up to be able to say like, yeah, I’m really like, Friendship first right now in my life. Like I like the idea of linking up and being active together and doing new things with other people is like really important to me in this season, like owning it so that it expedites the process of me finding people who can say same as opposed to like playing it like, Oh no, I’m, I’m chill.

Like whatever. If it, if inside I kind of do want more, but I don’t want it to look like I’m. Being too clinky, but I do want more active integrated friendships right now Um, so it’s always that balance and I love you know What you’re saying about moving to a new city being open to new friendships trying to stay open And connected with other friends and make it does require work And I know some times people will say to me like well, i’m not doing all that I shouldn’t feel like all that and I totally get that but that’s where I like to hit them with this Which is, there was a study where they asked a bunch of people, do you believe that friendship should be easy, natural, and organic, or do you expect that it might take work?

And they followed these people for five years. The people who said that they believed that it should be easy, natural, and organic were reporting greater feelings of loneliness Then people who said, I expect it might take work. So to some degree we have to expect, especially once you’re out of college, that if we want these social moments together, we now have to facilitate those moments for ourselves where before somebody else was doing it for us.

But now I got to figure out. When can I meet with you? Okay. How long can we spend? Okay. Who do I want to prioritize? Cause time’s a limited resource. I can’t do this with 10, 15 people. So who are going to be like my top, my top girls, my top people, you know, so a lot of that mental labor is maybe required to stay connected to the people we say matter most.

Akua: 1000%. And you know, um, friendships is like dating. It’s the same thing. I mean, I only know this because I was on Bumble BFF when I first moved here and I was like, this is straight up like dating. Like it really, really is, but just more enjoyable. Like I just don’t take things as personal. You know what I mean?

I’m like, this is way better. So, you know, but it’s true. Like you really do have to really ask yourself, okay, like what kind of season of life that you’re in and how much are you willing to pour into it? And I think I love that just being very honest. And I think that’s just so important in all relationships, just in life, just again, that honesty, that transparency.

And I, I did not realize that like, yeah, like I’m like, Oh yeah, friendship. I always think that like relationship should be easy. And it’s like, to a certain degree, like things always, things are always going to be hard. And so it’s again, really asking yourself of like, how do I want to pour into this person?

What does my season of life look like? I think really asking yourself those clarifying questions to really decide, okay. Like. Do I want to pour into this another question? I’m really interested about because I would love to know your thoughts on this because I feel like especially in our industry I I think you called it like race like diversity and friendships, you know what I mean?

and I think let’s talk about this because I feel like in the industry too, the industry, it’s so, it can be very clicky. It is. I mean, I’m not even gonna lie. And I even find myself naturally in my own little click. And I think that was really heightened a lot too in 2020. And I think, you know, you go to a lot of conferences, you go to an all events, and I’m sure you’ve seen it where the, it’s one type of audience.

It’s consistently one type of audience, same type of people. And I think how can even just in general as us, how do we, uh, I love to make, that’s why I love storytelling so much. I’m a storytelling strategist and why I love it is because you get to connect with people that are so different than you. And the best thing in the world to me, it’s like sitting down at a table, breaking bread and talking about all things, um, where I get to learn so many amazing things about you and vice versa.

And, you know, just having a much different perspective. And I used to get this all the time, especially during 2020 of like, how do I connect with people that are very different than me and this and that? And, And so I want to bring that up. What are your thoughts on that? How can business owners, and I think just in general, not even just business, just life in general, how do we find people like kind of branch out of our own little comfortability, like whatever we’re comfortable with in our own little world and branch out and connect with people that are very different than us.

Um, cause I feel like that leads to much more enriching relationships, enriching life, but it also too can be, but it requires more work. So what are your thoughts on that? 

Danielle: Yeah. So. This can happen by very small degrees because I know sometimes we’re like, I want to meet different kinds of people. And we think we have to completely radically change what we’re doing, but it can happen with small shifts.

So for example, if you love yoga and that’s your thing, but typically when you go to classes, it’s in the evening. So. at a certain spot. How about you try going to yoga on a completely different side of town during the afternoon, like switching up the time, switching up the area that you’re doing it. Those little things put you a few degrees closer to other worlds.

When you have social gatherings, can you make it so it’s like, Hey, everybody bring a plus one. So everybody brings somebody that way. I’m meeting somebody who’s like a little bit different, but there’s still a level of attachment, but they’re from a different world. The exercise we did earlier around, okay, am I in communities for the various aspects of my identity?

Or have I been kind of like, like. Kind of lacks about being plugged into any group other than entrepreneurship. Let me be more active in that way. And so honestly, the starting point is starting with the things that you enjoy to do. So there’s some baseline when I do meet this person, we have some kind of shared interest and that brings us together.

But I know that being in these groups will attract a lot of different people, even pursuing hobbies that you’ve always told yourself like, Oh, that would be interesting to try, but you never really have. To go and do that now, you know, and so I think that there are a lot of ways to meet different kinds of people And then the last uh strategy i’ll say which feels really obvious, but we don’t do it Is You’ve got to be open to talking to people throughout your day because a lot of times when we think about the task of making Friends, we’re like, okay, what groups can I join?

What and like that’s all well and good But I think we we underestimate or overlook how many opportunities there are throughout the day To talk to other human beings and so this could be I’m at Target checking out and instead of being on my phone I like strike up a conversation Like a 90 second conversation with a cashier that could look like, you know, when I’m walking along the block, like when I see people saying hello, or if I’m going to museum chatting up the guy who worked at the museum just a little bit, or if I’m looking at an exhibit at the museum and I’m standing like four feet away from another person looking at the same thing, normally we just look and, you know, and then we like walk away.

But instead I might say something like, Oh my gosh, this, His art is so haunting, isn’t it? And this person’s likely going to be like, Oh my gosh, I know. And we get a little chat going. It might be nothing, but, and I’ll end with this. One of the main pieces of advice I like to give is. Prioritize connection over friendship, and I’m saying that as a friendship researcher or educator.

Prioritize connection. So what that looks like is how can I have one meaningful social interaction every day? Maybe it leads to something, maybe it doesn’t, but a natural byproduct of being a connector is Is that friendships form but I just got to be open to like having these many moments of connection and people all the time And of course little friendships are going to sprout from that.

Akua: Yes. Oh, I love that so much I think yes prioritizing connection over friendship because I think again It’s when we have these expectations of like, oh this person I really want them to be like you put just Unnecessary expectations and if somebody, especially in your mind, right? Like you think like we’re gonna be the best of friends and this and that and so when that person isn’t who you thought They were yeah, it instantly will lead to resentment anger.

You know what I mean? I think I love that prioritizing connection over friendship So it’s like when you’re prioritizing connection just having those simple conversations and that’s okay if it doesn’t go anywhere It’s just like hey, but I least was able to connect with somebody. I was at least able to have a really good A life giving conversation to where like you’re still like enjoying your day.

You’re still enjoying your life. And I think that’s just so, so important. And this conversation has been absolutely amazing. And so I have two more questions for you, but one question I want to ask of you as like a friendship expert, everything, everything you’ve walked through, what is your biggest hot take on friendship?

Danielle: Oh, um, oh my gosh, I have so many, but one else. Oh gosh. Okay. What I’ll say is, is I no longer believe in the more the merrier. Um, and I’m talking specifically for like social gatherings, but I used to be like, yes, friends, like, tons of friends, everybody come. And then I read the book, the art of gathering.

And she was talking about how when friends come together, a lot of times we’re like, okay, invite everybody. Yeah, whatever. But sometimes that’s counterproductive and sometimes that’s a problem. So she was saying, whenever you come together with friends, think about your objective, like What’s the point? Are you trying to have a specific deep dive into a certain topic?

Are you trying to share more intimately? Because that determines who’s in the room and you cannot have everybody in the room to achieve certain objectives, which to some people feels like, Oh, that’s harsh or you’re being exclusive, but I don’t think so. So if I knew that there’s somebody who tends to hog conversation, like maybe, maybe not.

Or if I want it to be something where people feel more confident to share, I probably don’t want 20 people there. Like you probably don’t feel comfortable to share. So she says, think through, what do you want from this experience? And that will directly determine who you invite and how many, but the whole, yeah, everybody come to my bachelorette.

Everybody come to the dinner party. Yeah. Is actually not a good idea. And I stand by that. 

Akua: Oh my gosh, I love that so much. And that’s so true, . Yeah, that, that’s a good point though. You have to think about like, what objective do you want from the, like, what goal do you wanna accomplish at this event? Like, you know, at, in this space.

I think that’s so, so key. And it’s not say like, excluding this person as if you don’t like them. It’s just like. I think all of us, and to your point with like all the variety of fringes that we have, you place people where you place them. Is that like a bad way to look at it? I mean, that’s kind of how I view it, but what are your, yeah, I don’t know the look you’re giving me.

You’re like, maybe not. No. 

Danielle: I hear, I hear a lot of people say that. I actually adapted my thought on this, but I’ve hear a lot of people say like, Hey, if this is my book club friend and like, that’s our thing. So we talk books and I go to her for book stuff and it’s fun to me. She seems to be fun with it.

Like this is how I see her. So I’m probably never going to introduce my existential thoughts on, you know, The afterlife of after, like, you know what I’m saying? Like it just doesn’t fit here. And we’re talking about mom life. It doesn’t really fit. She’s my book club friend. So I think that could be really helpful in terms of maintaining lots of different social ties.

If I only am expected to rise to a certain level or show up in a certain way that I’m able to maintain a lot of connections, cause I’m not trying to be besties and maintain a close, intimate friendship with everybody in my life, which is not possible. But recently I had a young woman say, you know, she realized that she is somebody’s, um, gym and wellness friend.

And that’s all she is to them. And she was like on one side, I get it that they see me as gym friend, but I noticed she only calls me when she wants to talk about gym stuff. And when she has a question about a fitness thing or she has, and it feels reductive to me because I’d like her to see me in other ways.

Like, don’t just call me when you want. And I thought, Oh, now that’s interesting. So, you know, it’s, it’s always, I think that’s what makes friendship itself. Feel like sometimes such a tricky thing, because I always say it is the most ambiguous relationship you will ever have, you know, with a romantic partner.

I already know what’s up. We kind of know what to do here. We know what the terms are with my boss. I know what we do here. Coworkers. Like we kind of know, but with friendship, I mean, sometimes we don’t even know, are we friends? Like are we cool, but like, but are we friends or if we fight, like, are we still, are we, are we mad?

Or am I just your gym friend? Or am I, are we more? So it’s such an ambiguous relationship, but I say that that should give us even more urgency around clarifying as much as possible because we don’t know and we make so many assumptions and I think a lot of us are ending friendships prematurely because of it.

Akua: Yes, oh my gosh, that’s such a such a good point. Uh, I know it’s just it is it’s hard because you’re just like So many things are always left unsaid in friendships and to your point. It’s like in relationships He’s just like it’s a lot again. You already know what it is. Here are the Here are the guidelines.

It’s really easy. It’s right in your face and from you Just don’t know and so so many times like I can think of myself where like yeah conflict. I have been like Deuces. I’m not saying it to be proud. I’m not saying it’s healthy now. Okay. Like, I’m not saying that at all. I think again, like what you shared today just really forces us as individuals in general, of how do we navigate all the relationships in our life, especially the ones that we love and that we value.

How do we continue to pour into them? What some of these techniques and strategies that we can utilize to really strengthen relationship and then also to build new ones, you know what I mean? And I think these, these conversations are just so, so important. Um, and it’s just so important, not only just like in business, but also in life.

And so I have absolutely loved this. And so, uh, question I want to ask you is what is next for you? I mean, like not even necessarily what’s next, just how are you enjoying this season? You know, obviously with the book tour, like life is crazy, but how are you enjoying it? What is, what is, um, coming up for you?

Danielle: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting because I am one of those people who like, I love my job. I love it. I love the hustle. I love coming up with ideas. I love a team meeting. I love like, Oh gosh, there’s a new media opportunity. Yeah. Look, I love that so much. And I think I recently read the book called the good enough job.

And I cannot recommend that to entrepreneurs enough. And the idea is just like, what’s good enough with work? Because you also, Have to live and they did this study where people who could list other things they derive joy from tend to be like happier Overall as opposed to the person who like most of your conversations everything is the job and that’s really hard for me as a millennial Who grew up on hustle culture?

Akua: Yes, 

Danielle: it’s very hard because we get rewarded For hustling 

Akua: for hustling. You know 

Danielle: what I mean? And I, people praise you for it. Like, wow, you’re killing it. And you accomplish a lot of things and you’re like, yes. And collecting wins. But I, as I age, I’ll be 37 this summer. I’m really starting to think about like, well, you’re working so hard.

So that what, like, so you can enjoy time with friends. Exactly. You could be doing that now. So now like, you know, the book tour is fun and exciting, but we have a date. It ends in DC on July in July. And I so look forward to. reading books and hanging out with friends and doing picnics in the backyard with my kids.

Like I trust that work will always be there. There will always be something and life is short. And so right now I’m really looking forward to just being present and trusting that work will work itself out a lot of times. 

Akua: Yes. Oh, work will work itself out. Oh my gosh. I love that so much. Oh, just, yes, I’m so excited for you.

And I, you know, I absolutely, you guys, we will absolutely be linking the book in the show notes. Please order it. I definitely will be today. So. So much goodness in this conversation, Danielle, and thank you so much for being here. For people who want to connect with you, how can we support you? 

Danielle: Yeah.

Everything lives at betterfemalefriendships. com. That’s links to the podcast and resources and all the things, but our goal is just to show people, but women specifically, tangibly, how they can enjoy more satisfying friendships with other women is our goal. And so I’m an educator at heart. And so they’re tangible and actionable resources.

And, um, and I look forward to seeing everyone over there. 

Akua: And the last question I always love to end with is, what do you think is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail? 

Danielle: Ooh, um, I would say it’s probably losing focus, losing focus. I think it’s, there’s so much to do and there’s so much that’s distracting, but what is the reason you got into this?

And I feel like that’s a really good anchor or compass rather for the decisions. That you make thereafter once you decide what am I in this for? Hopefully it keeps you grounded and helps to make all those other micro decisions a whole lot easier. 

Akua: Oh my gosh Yes, that’s so true Like I think when you have you that focus it just reminds you especially when things get tough of like this is why you started This is why you’re doing this.

This is why this stream has been put on your heart. So, oh my gosh Love that so much Danielle. Thank you Thank you so much for being here and for everybody listening until next time. That ends our episode of the independent business podcast. Everything we’ve discussed today can be found at podcast.

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