Natalie Franke
Welcome back. Today we are talking about the fact that the majority of independent business owners do not believe that the government is doing enough to support them or even understand their needs. Let me explain what I mean by that. 84% of independent business owners say that there should be more government resources and financial assistance dedicated to supporting small business. 81% say that the government does not do enough to make business owners aware of the programs that already exist. Only half of independent business owners say they believe that their elected officials vote with their best interest in mind or believe that their elected officials understand the struggles that independent business owners face. Given that we are having a conversation today about the government. We are having a conversation today about advocating for yourself as an independent business owner and sitting down with America’s government teacher, Sharon McMahon. Sharon is on a mission to curate facts fun and inspiration by educating Americans on democracy, politics and history. After years of serving as a high school government and law teacher, Sharon took her passion for education to Instagram with a mission to combat political misinformation with nonpartisan facts. Sharon has earned a reputation as America’s government teacher, like I said and quickly amassed over a million followers, affectionately known as the governors. Sharon is also the host of the top rated podcast here is where it gets interesting, where each week she provides entertaining factual accounts of America’s most fascinating moments. Sharon has done an immense amount, philanthropically. She has been featured on shows like The Daily Show, and Good Morning America among countless others. The truth, though, is that Sharon has used her platform to inspire, to uplift to educate, and ultimately to do an immense amount of good in this world. As someone who has been running small businesses myself for over 15 years. I know that at times when I get frustrated about the government or frustrated about what’s happening around me regarding things like affordable childcare, or health care, retirement policies, and tax savings, or lack thereof for independence, I can feel a little bit hopeless, I can feel a little bit helpless, I can feel as though I don’t have the ability to make a change. But you see, we do have the ability to make a change. And today we are talking with Sharon McMahon, about how we can do just that, about how we can use our voices to advocate where we go to communicate our requests and how we reach out to our government officials, our elected officials, I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode of The Independent Business Podcast. This is a good one. Hey, everyone, this is your host, Natalie Frank, and you’re listening to the independent business podcast, more people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs and creators to break down the science of self made success so that you can achieve it.
Natalie Franke
Sharon, thank you so much for joining me.
Sharon McMahon
It is truly a delight.
Natalie Franke
I adore you. I have adored you for a very long time. And the fact that you are on this podcast right now. And we are combining two worlds in which you know a lot about small business, independent business and the government. I feel like this episode is going to be one for the record books. And to kick us off, I would love to just start with a little bit of your story, the bulleted short version of how did you become known as America’s government, or what led you to this point?
Sharon McMahon
I, you know, have been a government teacher for a very long time. So I legitimately am a government teacher, I have all the you know, credentials to do that. But for a period of time, I also owned two separate independent businesses, one of which I sold, and one of which I decided not to work at anymore for a variety of reasons, mostly because I was working on Instagram, growing my Sharon’s SSL profile, working on podcast, et cetera. So these are, as you mentioned, both topics that I love, I love independent businesses. I love talking about business. And I also know quite a bit about how government works and how the intersectionality of Independent Businesses and in government so, you know, my businesses that I ran, one of them was a yarn dyeing business, where I hand dyed yarn and sold it all over the world. I like wholesaled it and I also sold directly to consumers. And then I was also as you were a photographer. Yeah, and I did that
Natalie Franke
didn’t know that too. Yeah, the yarn business though. That one I don’t I must have been living under a rock. I did not know that.
Sharon McMahon
That was a while ago. It was a while ago. It eventually became one of the largest handwriting studios in the world. And then I sold it to one of my employees and became a photographer. But that was a very interesting job because I was, we were hand making a tangible good, not just you know, working in a digital space like photography often is people do sell products, of course. But it’s more of a, it’s a less take photography is less tangible than yarn is so interesting.
Natalie Franke
Yeah, that’s incredible. I, you know, myself, obviously you mentioned I’ve been a photographer, and that was kind of my first business. And in that journey of, you know, leaving, I graduated from college, and instead of going and getting a corporate nine to five w two job, I went full time into my business, immediately was confronted with the fact that a lot of the system in the US is not built for what I did, it’s not built for the independent business owner, right, so much of what we gain from employment with a larger company, you know, are the benefits that you need health care, your retirements through your employer parental leave is through your employer if you have it at all. And I could go on and on and on. But But leaving college and going full time this business, I think I realized rather quickly, wow, this system was not built for business owners. And I felt a little bit powerless. I didn’t know, you know, is this the way it’s always going to be? Is this the way it always has been? What can I do to change it, and I know a lot of business owners in our community feel the same about a wide variety of issues, everyone is passionate about something a little different that impacts their business. And so I want to kind of lead into that and ask, you know, in regards to advocacy, if there is something, you know, we want to advocate about, or we want to get in touch with our government officials about where should a business owner start? How can we make sure that we’re equipping ourselves with accurate information to go forth? And have those conversations? How do we even have them? Where do we have them help help share
Sharon McMahon
and help? Yeah, well, I think we tend to view government first of all, too big Lee, and too broadly, we tend to think that it’s the President and Congress. And if we have a problem, we should write an email to our Congress person, and then we feel like but they’re never going to respond, and nothing’s ever gonna change. That’s, that tends to be how we feel about it. But I would really encourage people to think much smaller when you’re thinking about your independent business, and government, because the vast majority of policies that are going to be affecting your business are occurring at a state or a local level, depending on what kind of business you’re running. And if you’re listening outside of the US, this may not be the most applicable advice, but chances are good, there is a local office that you could work with, you don’t need to go directly to your national government. So people’s ability to impact government at a state and local level is exponentially more than you realize. We think of, you know, like, I have two senators, I represent my whole state of 35 million people, they don’t care about me, but you know, who you actually have a very good chance of getting on the phone is the person that represents you in your state legislature, or the person on your city council. The one resource I can recommend to people is a website called Open states.org. And you would go there, you would enter the address of your independent business. And you would immediately displayed on the next screen, who represents you in your state legislature, what their, what their names are with their email addresses, our phone numbers, mailing addresses, and you can then very quickly and easily reach out to them. And I will tell you that if you are polite, professional and persistent, three things that most independent business owners know how to be, right, we all know how to be polite, professional and persistent. You can make things happen. You can get people on the phone, you can attend a hearing, you can advocate for a position, you can say we need better acts in this state. And your ability to make your voice heard with polite professional persistence is actually extremely good. If you ask anybody who represents you in state or local government, how, how good are my chances of being able to influence or impact something if I’m polite, professional and persistent, they will all tell you the same thing. Actually quite good. You can come to the I will interview you you can will advocate for a bill together. So whatever the issue is that you’re having in government, if you just keep those sort of three P’s in mind, and think smaller, think about your city or your state and not about Congress. I think you’ll find more receptivity than you anticipated.
Natalie Franke
We’ve experienced that here in Annapolis where I live my husband is super passionate about a lot of niche topics. I’ve joked about this on the podcast before crosswalks bike lanes, pedestrian infrastructure, that’s his thing. Now he’s also though very passionate about outdoor dining and local businesses and how businesses have access To that dieting, and so you’re spot on everything you’re saying I’m like, that is exactly what he did. He wanted outdoor dining to remain after they were lifting a lot of the, you know, kind of emergency policies that they put out during COVID. And he went and testified at the city council meeting. And he, like, was a part of kind of advocating for just a handful. There’s not very many of the independent restaurants in my little neighborhood. But he went and he advocated on their behalf and in alignment with kind of like a bunch of others in our neighborhood. And they extended it. And so it’s interesting to see that you’re right, I think on the local level, he got responses rather quickly. He’s had crosswalks put in by being very persistent. I joke that like, they probably see his email come in, and they’re like, Oh, Mr. Hayes, is that it again?
Sharon McMahon
But they also probably know that he’s not going to give up now. And so they might as well just acquiesce right away, because he’s going to keep being politely persistent about it. Until they fix it.
Natalie Franke
Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Just for us, as business owners like we, we should feel as though you know, we can do the same that we can be vocal about the things that matter most to us. So as I mentioned earlier, the entire American system is sort of structured for corporate workers, right? Or at least it’s not structured for independent businesses, but you put it that way. And there are specific things that you know, you would in the US kind of expect your employer to have given you health care is an example setting up for retirement, if you’re lucky, again, parental leave, if you’re lucky, not all of these things are available to everyone. But a lot of companies, do you cover that overall for for their employees, as opposed to maybe let’s say it coming from the government? And I’m just curious if you know, what is the history on that? Why is that? Why is that sort of our system, as opposed to other options that exist in other countries around the world?
Sharon McMahon
Well, first of all, health insurance is actually a relatively modern invention, right? Like they didn’t have health insurance in 1776. There were there was no, like, I got Blue Cross, you know, that wasn’t a thing. Hospitals themselves didn’t exist until the Civil War. So when we think about, you know, the modern medical system, health care system, etc, we really see that developing in the later part of the 20th century, we think about like Social Security, developing during the Great Depression, but a lot of our current programs like Medicare and Medicaid, that have government availability of some type of health insurance, that actually didn’t really get going in the way that we know it until the 1960s. So Harry Truman, who was president after FDR died beginning in 1945, actually advocated for a national health insurance plan. And he got shot down by Congress, they were like, we can’t, we’re not doing that. And we actually have other if you think about the type of health insurance they have in Canada, Health Canada is, is a single payer health care system. The government, the the doctors are not government employees. They are, you know, independent employees, or they work for a hospital or whatever, but the only group that pays their bills is the government. So that’s a single payer system. It is exactly in many ways, like what Medicare is where you go to the doctor, and then who pays the bill, the government, right. And so there have been a number of presidents over time, number of members of Congress over time who have advocated for expanding those government programs, to creating something like a Medicare for All program, you know, where if you want to buy into it, you can, but beginning you know, our current systems beginnings happen in the middle part of the 20th century. So you can directly trace this employer based system to the advent or or to a post world war two economy is what I should say, a post world war two economy, and people have made various attempts at changing it, you can think about things like Obama Care, creating health care exchanges, because it is so very difficult for independent business owners to afford or even obtain insurance because of how small the risk pool is, it can be prohibitively cost expensive. So the history behind it is that some people over the years have tried to create a system that was not based on your individual employer, but that was based on a bigger broader, societal systemic system. I can also tell you that one of the reasons that people took Harry Truman’s idea of national insurance and then we’re like, No, we’re not doing that is because of the Red Scare. It’s because of America’s deep seated and lingering ongoing to this day, fear of communist Some. And the idea that big huge government control over these types of things equaled godless communism. That is, they were truly equivalent to many people. And still to this day, many people equate those things, they would say that the government control of things like health care is too much government control. People have a variety of viewpoints on what the government’s role in this should be. But you can, you can trace it right back to the 1950s.
Natalie Franke
Wow, wow, I didn’t know that history that like I, this is great. I should be taking notes. And I’m going to replay this and take some notes. I didn’t understand any of that. But it does. It’s interesting, when you say even things around the Red Scare, it provides a little bit of context into some of the narratives that I always heard growing up, like for my grandparents around how they felt politically regarding something like health care. And it is so interesting to hear you say that, because I’m going wow, that actually really does align with some of the things that I heard. And, you know, just some maybe roots of some of the even today current discourse, which is so interesting.
Sharon McMahon
And the Harry Truman, I’ll tell you one other little fun fact, Harry and Bess Truman, of course, when they left the White House, they lived a long life after they left the White House. And when the current iteration of Medicare was signed into law under the Lyndon Baines Johnson administration, they had this big ceremony. And they Johnson presented the first Medicare cards in existence to Harry and Bess Truman. So, you know, they had advocated for a national insurance plan. And of course, they were famous elderly Americans at that time, and they were there at the ceremony and got their very first Medicare cards.
Natalie Franke
That’s beautiful. I love that. That is so cool. So so cool. So let’s say for a second that you are a business owner, and let’s say healthcare is the thing you want to advocate for in your state improved access, or whatever it is for you. Again, it could be any issue, where would somebody begin, you mentioned open state.org, that’s a great place to start. But beyond just finding out who to talk to, for the person who sits there, you know, with the blank cursor in the inbox and doesn’t know, you know, what to do, or even to pick up the phone is terrifying. We know fewer and fewer millennial and Gen Z like to pick up that telephone? Is one preferred over the other, like, where did where do we even start? How do we begin?
Sharon McMahon
Yeah, I wouldn’t say that there’s strong evidence for one mode of communication over the other individual representatives will tell you like I slightly prefer emails because I can print them out and read them later. Or they will say I slightly prefer phone calls, because we can have a better individual connection that maybe we don’t that is lost via email. So I don’t think there is a strong always called Never email. I don’t I don’t know that that’s true. It’s based more on the individual. But here’s the thing that I think people get intimidated by, they think they need some kind of PhD in English literature to write a letter to their, to their representative, or they feel like they need to follow some special format. And if they don’t follow the format, you know, like when you were in college, like you better be Times New Roman 12 point, you know, like, are good and knock points off. They feel like there needs to be some kind of special format, or they are not going to be taken seriously. And that is not the case at all. I would say that starting with, you know, the, again, that polite professionalism, but telling your own story of why you started an independent business, why being a business owner is important to you why you want to be a good citizen of your community. Why independent businesses are the backbone of society, telling your own story will often have a far greater impact than following some specific format of like deucer. I write to you today, for the requester and audience you don’t like just write how you talk. Be polite, professional, and persistent. But tell your own story about why something is important to you. I’ll tell you something that was important to me when I moved to a new state and started a new business, which was that my city did not have a small business website where I could go and get all of my information where I could be like, I need a business license, I need to collect local sales tax, I need to do XY and Z. There was no such clearing house and it became sort of arduous to try to meet all of the requirements that I feel like is something that if your city or your state is not doing that they’re you know, missing the boat, but advocating for that and actually saying, I just moved here. I want to follow the law. I want to be a good corporate citizen. Help me help you. Okay, no, like me make it easier for me. That story actually is way more impactful, then you guys don’t are not doing anything right over there. What are you even thinking you’re making it way too hard for me, that would not have nearly the impact of saying, I really want to I’m an intelligent person, I went to college and I’m having a difficult time finding the information I’m looking for and I want to pay, I want to collect and remit my local sales taxes. Tell your story. And just be polite, professional, persistent.
Natalie Franke
I love it. I absolutely love it polite, professional, persistent, we shall be for sure we shall be. What do you think that small business owners need from elected officials in order to create an environment where they can thrive? Like what what are the things that we should be asking for you mentioned the website, that’s a really great example, resources. And I will say, it shouldn’t require I believe it shouldn’t require a college degree to even understand how to do things should truly be accessible. Something we fight for, it’s a core value of mine is like accessibility to entrepreneurship should be something that is more more broad and available, because it’s such an incredible vehicle for life change for wealth generation, for community development, all of those things, but what are some of the things that, you know, we need in our environment to thrive that we should be looking to our elected officials to support us in?
Sharon McMahon
I love that question. I think it’s a great question. And I already mentioned the website. So I won’t belabor that point. But one of the regulatory challenges that I encountered moving to a new area was that often the there were no, there was no central location for information. And you would, I would get directed to one office and be told actually, we don’t deal with that Bob does it call Bob over and whatever. And I’d call Bob. And he’d be he’d laugh at me and be like, I don’t know why you’re calling me to call Janet. And I found myself spending hours trying to chase down this information where there was not one central office that handled all of those things. So to me, it is a far more efficient, less frustrating, and it helps foster that entrepreneurial spirit, if there is one location that somebody can go to one office that someone can go to, to obtain everything they need, rather than being passed around very in a very frustrating manner. And I will say when I moved my business to a different state, they had fantastic systems where it was extremely easy. And I really, in that moment, felt like this regulatory environment, it fosters my desire to locate here, way more than it did on the other side of the bridge, where it was far more challenging. So that is something that will benefit your community’s entrepreneurial spirit as a whole, if there’s one place you can go, I would advocate for starting that sort of location. Another thing that I think is very useful, and I have made use of this myself, is mentorship programs. One of the things that really intimidated me, as a small business owner, I worried about doing it wrong, I worried about the repercussions of doing it wrong, was how to keep my books, and how to like do my taxes and how to, you know, as a teacher, I never learned any of that. And it people get hold degrees in accounting, you know what I mean? Like, it’s too much is too hard. And there are turns out some great software programs now that really make things easier. But nevertheless, the real world, implications for getting it wrong, can be very serious. So I would advocate for by the way, I was actually living in Maryland at the time, and I, through a program that Maryland offers, had a was paired with a great mentor, because I told them, I really need help with accounting. I do not know how to do any of this. And they actually paired me with a volunteer, retired accounting professor who just like was like, here’s what you got to do. It’s very simple. You know, just you need to know these 10 things. That’s really what you got to worry about. You don’t have 150 million employees. If it’s just you start small, you don’t need to know how to do accounting for a fortune 500 company with offshore profit sectors, you only need to know what you actually what actually applies to you. So those kinds of mentorship programs that pair people with expertise with people who need their expertise are things that are government programs that don’t cost that much money to administer because most of the mentors are volunteer or they receive a small stipend, but can go a really long way to you know, it gave me the confidence to go ahead with the business that I business idea that I had. I felt too overwhelmed without being paired with that mentor. So especially Usually in those kinds of fields that many creative business owners feel intimidated by, like the business, the bookkeeping business aspect of it, I would love to see more of that at a local level where you can actually get that person or like I went to his office, and he sat down with me, it only took like an hour, but I would not have known how to access that information otherwise.
Natalie Franke
I love that so much pivoting a little to you as the business owner. So from government now, to you, the business owner, I am really curious, because you have had now multiple businesses, you’ve also worked as a teacher, what is the think like the biggest lesson you have learned as an independent business owner yourself? Was there something that you look back and you go, whew, I didn’t know that when I went into it. And it really was kind of a learning I wasn’t expecting or something that pleasantly surprised you.
Sharon McMahon
One of the things that I really learned, you know, the hard way, and I know that you have spoken about this, too, and you I bet you will agree with me, which is that you have to value yourself, or nobody else will value you. You will not win the race to the bottom. There is no winning in the race to the bottom. And when you can confidently tell somebody, here’s how much I charge for this. And it’s totally worth it. You don’t when you can confidently say that to somebody, that confidence is infectious, they then believe that it’s worth it as well. Now listen, they may not be able to afford it. But that is different than it’s not worth it. Right? There’s a difference between I love your work. And I know it’s totally worth it. It’s just not in my budget, that’s very different than your charging. How much is that worth that at all, those are two very different things to hear on the other end of the line. But if you don’t value yourself, no one else is going to do it for you, there is no one coming to save you from that mindset of I am not worth it. I’ll just charge really low prices, because no one will book me if I don’t charge super low prices. It is in fact up to you to value yourself, no one is coming to do it.
Natalie Franke
I love that so much. We talk all the time about the fact that as a business owner, you’re often the meanest boss you’ve ever had. Right? Like you really we really are for ourselves oftentimes. And so it’s so important for us to remember that we must first value ourselves and how we speak to ourselves and how we feel confident in our own pricing and conveying that value. If we ever expect somebody else to I think that is so very true. One element to your business now, especially as community development, you’ve really grown an incredible community of governerds, I even I’m like this is the governerd’s edition of The Independent Business Podcast like this is like it’s it’s such a passionate community, and you’ve done so much good with that community. I’d love for you to share a little bit with us, like, how do you view community, right, as a business owner? And also, you know, with your responsibility with your platform, like how do you view community, the importance of it? And what are some of the things that you and your community have done together that you’re proud of?
Sharon McMahon
To me, a community is about a shared value system. You know, in in this context, it might be different if you live, you know, we’re talking about a community neighborhood, but in an online community, it’s about to me, it’s about a shared value system. And that is those are things that all governerds would hopefully have in common, even if we don’t agree with each other on who to vote for, we would all agree that would there’s no place for dehumanization in the political sphere, for example, that all humans are of infinite worth, and cannot engage in that sort of rhetorical tactics. So in addition to those shared values, which I talked about all of the time, you know, like I am constantly reiterating what our shared values are, you can’t assume, first of all, that everyone heard them the first time, or that everybody was in a mental space to absorb it. You can’t assume that people aren’t new. And I have a friend who does a lot of business coaching. And one of the things that she says that always stuck stuck with me is Once is Never Don’t say something one time, and think that people heard you once is the same as having never said it. So you have to continually repeat the same things over and over. Repetition is the key to learning anything. So repeating what your shared values are, and it doesn’t have to be cheesy, where you’re like, let’s join hands for the repetition of our shared value system. It doesn’t have to be cheesy, but if you continually talk about it, people will internalize it and then they will become evangelists for that message and will spread that message to other people and then also giving people the opportunity to do and be good people very let’s respond to that they want to be good. They want to, they most people view themselves as good, right? It is actually the only it’s a rare sociopath who does not have a self image of being a good person, they want to be good, they want others to view them as good. They want to do good things in the world. And so giving them the opportunity to develop that self image of who we are people who do good in the world, I have found to be tremendously valuable. And other people have said the same thing to me. So we have now raised and given away millions of dollars over the past couple of years, many millions of dollars in ways that are very impactful. And that might look different for every business owner, it doesn’t mean that every business owner needs to have a month long funding, you know, fundraising drive for a cause. But I think always looking for some way to give back, ingratiate you with your community, it makes you feel good. It makes them feel good. If they have to choose between you and somebody who does what is similar to you. But they saw that you were participating in some causes near and dear to their heart. That is that goes a long way. I will say that when I owned a local business when I was a photographer, one of the ways that I used that concept of people want to be and do good is anytime somebody asked me to donate to something. I said yes, no matter no matter what caught it, like it could be a thing for fishing. Like I don’t, I don’t care about fishing. Like I don’t care if you like it, but I don’t care about it, you know what I mean? does not affect me. But nevertheless, I knew that people in that that community wanted to do and be good. And then over the years, I figured it out. And I donated probably seven to $9,000 worth of stuff to all of these community causes every year. And people would tell me like I see your name everywhere. And that was, you know, not just a smart marketing idea. But it also helped connect me to my local community. As somebody who cares about the causes that other people care about.
Natalie Franke
Amazing and small business owners in general have a desire to do good in their community. There have been so many interesting conversations around that I remember for giving Tuesday, I shared a statistic, just you know about the fact that small business independent business does actually give back more than larger companies totally when you have to look at it at scale. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it’s an amazing way that we can think about, you know, the clients, we serve the communities we’re cultivating. And I love how you described like, when you are a photographer, being able to actually use your craft to give back as well. I no longer shoot professionally. But last year, honey book has VTOL hours, which are volunteer time off hours, it’s paid time to go volunteer in your community. Very cool. And I recommend, you know, for anyone who if you were working full time, and you have something like that, take advantage of it. If you can instill that in your company with your employees do it, I went and used my camera and photographed at a regional accessible voting center here in Annapolis that basically makes sailing truly accessible for everyone. And so it was cool to go and create some marketing materials. For them. It was just two hours out of my day. But you know, it’s it’s a way to give back and use your craft for good and there’s so much power in doing that. As we wrap up today’s conversation, I first want to say I feel super empowered, I know where to go, I know who to reach out to to advocate, I know that I can do good and be good, especially in community with others. I want to ask a question as this is a podcast about the science of self made success. Sharon, what do you believe, is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail?
Sharon McMahon
I’m not gonna get into all of the stuff about like product development and like, you know, r&d, that’s not my wheelhouse. But I will say that nobody ever achieved anything great, without a true commitment to persistence. And that is what will def differentiate the vast majority of successful business owners from people who are not, is the willingness to show up every day and to continue to try. You can have the best product in the world or the best service in the world. You can be the best makeup artists or the best hairstylist or make the best journals or whatever it is. And if you do not have the persistence to show up every day, nothing will come of that. So persistence requires courage, though, right? It takes a lot of courage to be persistent. It takes a lot of courage to be persistent in the face of of overwhelming odds. It takes a lot of courage to be persistent when you experience failure. hardship. So persistence is sort of that outward manifestation of what is really just courage. And to me, it’s the people who have the courage to continue to try. That are the successes.
Natalie Franke
Sharon, thank you so much for joining me and for being a guest on the independent business podcast for listeners that want to know more about you. Maybe they’re not a governor yet, but now they’re itching to become a governor. Where can they go? Where can they find you?
Sharon McMahon
You can find me on Instagram at Sharon says so or you can also listen to my podcast, which is called here’s where it gets interesting. Wherever you get your podcasts.
Natalie Franke
It’s so good. And I got to be a guest on Sharon’s podcast it and we had fun. It’s just it’s such a great lesson. So if you’re listening to if you need a podcast that just really you walk away learning something you never knew would fascinate you as much as it does. That’s where it gets interesting. And here’s where it gets interesting. Your podcast is definitely, definitely a great Listen, Sharon, thank you so much for coming on. I’ve really loved our conversation.
Sharon McMahon
It’s been a pleasure. Thanks, Natalie.
Natalie Franke
That ends our episode of The Independent Business Podcast. Everything that we’ve discussed today can be [email protected]. Head to our website for access to show notes, relevant links and all of the resources that you need to level up. And if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss our future content. Drop us a review and leave our guests some love on social. Thanks again for listening
