Natalie Franke
For a moment, I want you to imagine that the very opportunity you have been working for your entire career is presented to you. You can’t believe it. You are so excited and enthusiastic and they hand you a contract, which you sign right away. 10 years later, that very contract threatens to take away the industry that you love the work that you’ve done your entire career, and even your name. Today on the podcast we are talking with former bridal designer Hayley Paige, now known as cheval, should always stress noteworthy female icons like dove, Cameron, Chrissy Tegan and Carrie Underwood and became one of the most sought after luxury bridal designers in the world. After nine years of working under a very one sided employment contract, her former employer sued her in federal court, and gained access to what she believed were her personal social media accounts. Today, she is prevented from using her own birth name in any business or commerce or even to publicly identify herself. She is also not receiving commission for her designs that are still being sold. And she’s restricted from identifying herself as a bridal designer for the next five years until August of 2027. Rather than waiting though, for left to strike, she’s creating her own one year ago, cheval personally publicly and professionally changed her name. She also launched a 501 C three nonprofit foundation that provides resources to better protect the interests of young women entrepreneurs and creatives during the most formative years of their career. Today on the podcast, we are talking about her learnings, the lawsuit and she holds nothing back. If you have big dreams, this is an episode you need to listen to, because what she has taken away from this experience is something that she hopes every business owner can learn before it happens to them. Hey, everyone, this is your host, Natalie Frank, and you’re listening to the independent business podcasts, more people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs and creators to break down the science of self made success so that you can achieve victory.
Natalie Franke
Chevelle, thank you so much for joining me.
Cheval
Thank you for having me.
Natalie Franke
All right, let’s just start from the very beginning. Did you always know that you were a creative that you wanted to get into design? How did that part of your, you know, early beginning culminate? Where did those inspirational creative vibes come from,
Cheval
I don’t remember a time in life where I didn’t want to express myself creatively. And growing up, my grandmother taught me to sell and bake. And my parents were so encouraging of anything I wanted to create with my hands. And it felt almost innate, I don’t always agree with Oh, you have to be born with it. But I just was constantly exposed. And I think that really helped, getting confidence and just see it as something that brought a lot of joy. And specifically, I did that with wedding dresses for quite some time.
Natalie Franke
And that’s really how I came across your work. And we were chatting before we hopped on about just the impact that you made in the wedding industry, especially during the years where, you know, I was growing my business and so many of us in the space like we all know you and knew you and what you were doing and the impact you were making. And you know, it was such a meteoric rise and impact in that season. And I want to kind of go to a moment back in 2011, when you signed on, as you were offered a role for my understanding as head of design. So you sign on this employment contract. Let’s fast forward to that moment. So your creative by heart, you, you know, build that into your career, you signed this employment agreement. Tell me about it.
Cheval
I felt so excited and thrilled to just be given my opportunity. And in my mind, it was my dream job. I had always loved the emotional attachment and the romance and the craftsmanship that goes into the wedding day in general. And because I had been trained and skilled in pattern making and draping and pretty much every one of my educational products was some form of a wedding dress. It just felt like the timing was right. And I remember at the time being, feeling very confident about what I can bring to the table. And a lot of my focus was on what I could bring what value and I think that’s what Were a lot of my issues, you know, looking at times I started is that I was hyper focused on my craft, and I wasn’t really looking at whether or not a certain environment was going to be right for me or what I could get out of it. And a lot of times people say, you know, you shouldn’t do anything for the money. And I can certainly attest to that. It was going in with the idea that this is what I wanted to do with my life. And I felt like it was my gift. But I didn’t really focus on anything else.
Natalie Franke
Now, the rule itself is pretty prestigious, right? Like to get a role like that. It’s a big deal.
Cheval
For me, it was because when I thought about my pipe dream, and my big dreams, and all that, it always had that desire, being the ringleader of your own creative expression, and being the head of a collection. And the creative vision behind that is definitely a big role. But it also requires a great deal of actual skill set and talent in the form of how do you execute a vision? How do you make a design come to life from start to finish, and I was somebody growing up that while I loved being creative, I didn’t really have the viability and think I was good at it until much later in life, and having the conviction and the validation was a really important part of my journey. So at the age of 25, I’d already had about five years of pretty intense industry experience, I had a full education dedicated to this, and then a lifelong dream of pursuing it. So at that moment, I felt like it was right. And it was a big deal, for sure. And I didn’t want to lose that opportunity.
Natalie Franke
So many business owners, I have no doubt are nodding their heads along with you and completely understand that feeling of, you know, imposter syndrome at times kind of living in the backgrounds of our minds. And when someone does come forward and offer us an opportunity. It does it feels like a gold star, like a big stamp of approval on a piece of our identity and our soul, which can lead us sometimes I think, to leap, perhaps, maybe an opportunity is that, you know, we don’t even imagine the potential negative outcomes of or we don’t see the full picture. And so I’m curious, did you have an attorney ever look over that initial contract? And if not, you know, do you think it would have changed anything? Or do you have any advice for folks that maybe, you know, are signing contracts all the time in their independent business,
Cheval
I did not have an attorney overlook my original contract. And to your point, I think, a lot of attention, and focus goes into optimistic ideals, that anything can be figured out. And as long as I work hard, and I go all in on something, you know, it’ll someday, you know, make sense. And looking back at that moment, now that I’ve had so much time to let this marinate, I genuinely do not think it would have made a difference if I had had counsel or an attorney. Because given the experience, and what I’ve had to go through, I was working for almost 10 years building up something. And when I went into a period of negotiation and trying to get a new contract or renegotiate that contract, I was met with such a special form of disagreement. And almost it felt like in an interview, by the way, that there was like this major departure, which I couldn’t really understand. Because after all this time, I felt like this was a long time coming. And I felt like I would have the ability to be successful in negotiating and figuring out what my future would look like. So going back 10 years without that experience, and without all of that I can’t even imagine that it would have really made a difference. I I don’t see how I think the real solution would have been for me to do more research. And for me to come to this place of abundance, that there are plenty of opportunities to live out my dream goal. There are plenty of capital investors or other companies or ways for me to achieve that dream. And for me, I think I was so small minded and this is my only shot. This is my only opportunity. You know, and so that’s the only way I can really look at it. In hindsight, I should have done a little more due diligence beyond that.
Natalie Franke
I really want everyone listening to this right now to just replay which fall just said because I hear it all the time in our community when it comes to things you know, as simple as like a client reaching out a great opportunity to, you know, photograph a wedding somewhere that you’ve always dropped a photo grasping it or take on a design client that you’ve always dreamed of working with, all the way through these bigger like acquisitions of intellectual property, so on and so forth. Types of conversations because so often, right, we, we feel as though if I don’t see this one opportunity, that’s it for me, there is nothing else I have to take it or we go in, like you’re saying, with that mindset of like, more of what, you know, nothing’s gonna go wrong, everything’s gonna go right not acknowledging that we may have our heart, our soul and our identity tied to a piece of this work. But the entity on the other side doesn’t share that, right. And, for us, it means so much more as independent business owners than perhaps it could ever mean to a larger corporation, especially folks who work b2b. Like they know this. They see this all the time. And so I just I want to make sure folks listening remember that like, it’s okay, sometimes to say no to really good opportunities, if you know it’s not right for you. And that oftentimes, like I, you know, we chatted about this a little bit before, but I turned down the first book deal that was ever offered to me. Out of the blue, I had brain surgery, and a publisher approached me, I was unrepresented. And they offered me this amazing book deal. And like, we want you to write a book. It’s one of the top publishers in the world. And I remember at that time feeling like how you can’t say no to that. I’m nobody, right? Like, I’m nobody, I can’t say no to this. And I was really lucky that a fellow author friend, Jon Acuff, who we’re also going to have on the show that I connected with on on Twitter just said, Hey, before you sign anything, like hit one of his passions, similar to now one of yours is supporting future authors, aspiring authors and unrepresented authors, and just ensuring that nothing, you know, they’re not taken advantage of allowing them to decide for themselves, obviously, but he said, Hey, just have my agent read over it, he’s an attorney just haven’t look at it, haven’t looked at it, you can still sign the thing. You know, like, it’s a great publisher, it would launch you for sure, but haven’t read it. And that and my agent read over the contract and was like this, this, this, this, I like, you can sign this, I would advise against it. But you need to know what you’re getting into. Just make sure you’re aware of what signing this means. And it was like perpetuity right? So uncertain things that I wouldn’t have known what that language was, I would have had no idea. And I’m sharing all of this to say that like these opportunities when they pop up, they might be amazing. They might be career launching opportunities, they might be exactly what you’ve worked for, for 10 years. And sometimes you still got to take them knowing that you know, but you have to have that visibility of what you’re getting into. But other times, like you might want to say no, there’s no one right or wrong. There’s just what’s right for you. The challenge here, though, is that in those seasons, I think we can feel really vulnerable. And we can want to people, please and it’s uncomfortable. I mean, did you feel that way? Like I’m curious, like, did you feel even in that initial contract conversation, in the more recent negotiation like did, how did that come into play those feelings of vulnerability, that imposter syndrome, the notion of wanting to people, please Is that something you struggled with? Also?
Cheval
I definitely related. I nobody does something. I feel like I’ve felt you know, that. I’m nobody. And I hate that phrase, because you’re somebody, and you don’t even know what your capabilities and potential could potentially be. And you’re already putting yourself at a disadvantage. And that can be such a hard habit to unlearn. It makes you compromise too much. And of course, in any business deal, there is given take the transparency, and the clarity is what is so important in knowing what you do want, and what you think you might be able to do. And where you can meet in the middle, I actually read this book called never split the difference. And there were a lot of it that I did agree with. But there’s some to which I feel like you do need to have self awareness of where you can go and where your limitations are, what are those boundaries, because if you do not set them, somebody else looks at them for you. That’s the same thing with your work. Even if you don’t know what your worth is, do not leave it for the taking, because somebody else will set that worth. So it’s really important to know that no deal is better than a bad deal. That will set you back.
Natalie Franke
That right there that lat like that last sentence right there. So important. I’m curious to know from you, you know, going through all of this, have you experienced now where you can’t use your legal name that was on your birth certificate in any sort of commerce, which we know extends now to social media as it’s been perceived social media as part of commerce, so on and so forth. You’ve been through a journey. You’ve really been through it. I mean, we’re rooting for you. All of us. All the independent business owners have been on the sidelines like watching, observing and rooting fiercely. I’m curious, you know, how is cheval different from the woman who came before? How has this experience transformed you? And you know, when we are talking now, like you’re different than than the woman that you were, when you signed that contract back in 2011, I’d love to kind of get a peek behind the curtain of what do you think is changed
Cheval
experience is what has changed me for certain that when everything is uncertain, change is certain. I love that there was the sense of adventure. And there’s a sense of reinvention with a shovel. And the name itself gave me an opportunity to step forward in a way that I had for miss my own identity. Even though I lost so much, I feel like I was able to regain and hold on to pieces that I was really proud of. And also unpacked and leave behind patterns and behaviors that didn’t work. And that’s not to say, you know, I figured it out. But the the learning process and the unlearning and all of that kind of goes together, and it’s forever motion I, I always say I’m forever a work in progress. But being able to be self aware of the mistakes you’ve made, at least identify them, and know that the most important thing is not making them again, just learning from those mistakes. I think that was a really long way. And it’s part of the process, of course. But there are parts of me, I still wrestle with every day, we spoke briefly about being a people pleaser. And I still identify that way, I do like to make sure people feel comfortable around me, and that I’m saying nice things to make them feel welcome and that they belong and the environment we’re in or whatever it is. And I think I’ve had to kind of learn that there is a way to still set boundaries, and a way to say no to things without being confrontational. And that’s something I work through almost every day, you definitely still want to be respected. Because that’s a different form of a relationship. There can be moments where you want us or you’re fighting or you don’t agree with something, but you still have the respect there. And just a general sense of politeness is important without giving away.
Natalie Franke
I feel that I feel that so part of this transformation, though, has also required you to, from my understanding, stop working in the wedding industry, and actually have to truly reinvent your self like creatively work in a different space, at least until what 2027. Is that right?
Cheval
So I am under a five year provision, which some see as a non compete, where I cannot identify to the trade as a designer, in any of the categories my former employer manufactures or sells. So it’s very specific to wedding dress designing or anything my former employer creates. So it’s not that I’m forbidden from the industry or anything like that. It’s more so the actual trade set and the My chosen trade something I went all in on my whole life education industry experience, I can no longer do for a five year period.
Natalie Franke
So you have had to reinvent yourself in a lot of ways as a result of that. What does that look like? What is the current day to day life like for you, I already know, but I want you to share it with our listeners,
Cheval
there’s definitely soul searching every day, I think when your sense of self is challenged in the way that mine has, from my name to what I always thought was my social media, my personal social media accounts, losing access to those or having to turn this over. And then my training, which is something you know, as I said, it’s been a whole lifelong journey. It’s not just been this one period of time. It had me questioning who am I if you know what to think of that scene from zoom Landover, looks into the puddle and is like, who am I? You know, it’s really scary. And I think the good silver lining of it is that it has forced me to look elsewhere. It’s forced me to direct my attention to what I can do, as opposed to what I can’t. And that I think is where optimism does play a really strong responsibility role in looking at my situation, okay, take accountability for where I’m at, you know, and then take a step in front of the other in the direction of how can I still use some form of my skill set. That’s where I did find shoes. And that’s where I’ve reinvented with The name and came up with a brand that was really sentimental and nostalgic to me because it allowed me to remember parts of my journey that were so important in defining who I was as a child, and in school, and through my relationships, all those things that have really led me to where I am, because who I am is not just what I have accomplished, and the money I’ve made and lost, you know, it’s not defined by those as much as it’s defined by what am I attracted to? What friendships do I have? To have? I have a group of people who am I in the unseen hours, and it can sound really boost up. But it’s been so important for me staying sane through a lot of this. And through real moments of unexpressed love and briefs Have you get?
Natalie Franke
Who am I in the unseen hours? I? That question alone, really, like I have little little micro chills all over my arms right now, who are you in the unseen hours and even just hearing you talk about this experience? Like you, you know, I remember the identity in which you feel when you build something with your name on it. I mean, you It’s why it becomes so difficult for so many in our community, especially if their name is attached to their business to take on things like negative criticism, because it begins to feel even like they’re not critiquing the business. They’re critiquing me, you’ve got it, right. Like there is an element of ourselves, that we flood into the work that we do, which is part of what makes it so successful. And also, it’s part of why like, even with you no longer being a part of that body of work that you create it in my mind, it makes that like future under that name. So different. They lost the magic because the magic is the human and for each business owner listening like you are the magic in your business. At the end of the day, I want to share a quote that I heard you saying on a recent interview with Jason Kartik of trading secrets, awesome podcast, you say the secret sauce is the human? It’s the human connection. It’s the human behind the brand.
Cheval
Absolutely.
Natalie Franke
Tell me about that.
Cheval
Couldn’t agree more with it in that there’s dilution, everywhere you go. Social media, for example, after a while a lot of content just starts to look the same. Everyone’s copying everyone else. But that minute you get that one, real or comment or whatever, that just feels so unique, and so personal. And based on that person delivering it, it feels super authentic. And then you get that sense of magic. And I think that is what does separate you from very, very overwhelmed and diluted areas. You think about it in photography, you know, being a wedding photographer, how have you separate yourself from every other wedding photographer out there, when you all kind of have optimized in your ability to capture light and to filter photos. And to make a couple of amazing? Well, relationships that the service side of it, the thing that you say that they just remember you for that it that’s where there’s that sprinkle on the rim, or the frosting on the cupcake, whatever you want to call it. But I think that is the differentiator. And more and more people are realizing that as they grow their businesses, how important that element is, has things become so much more automated, and AI focused and social media focused. And you know, when you do something for somebody, and it’s not just for pomp and pageantry, it’s not just gobbling up on social media, you do it genuinely, it needs more it matters more
Natalie Franke
music to my ears, and we talk so much about that on this podcast, because we love we’re like huge fans, we love AI we love automations. And we asked like how do you discern sometimes with independent business like you know, where you need to put that unique touch, you can leverage these tools and help it streamline your client flow. And in the process, find those spaces where you bring your uniqueness in a way that otherwise you couldn’t. And so I love what you said, like, you know, in so many words like you are the differentiator like you are that secret sauce, you are that magic and bringing that into your business is so critical and so important. I want to pivot a little bit to the future. So you have created some extraordinary shoe designs for folks, we’re going to link out to all of the things we talked about, as we always do in the show notes, highly recommend checking out the absolutely spectacular pieces of art also known as shoes that cheval has in her shop. But you’ve also created a nonprofit. And I want to double click into this side of the story because I think this to me personally was really exciting and empowering. And we talked about impact being made. You know, when we go through difficult seasons, we can either let it define us or we can let it feel less into our next chapter and this to me was evidenced that you’re doing the latter. There’s a quote here that I pulled from your site that I just want to share before we talk about a Girl you might know Foundation, which is schmalz nonprofit, it says, We believe that going after your biggest dreams should not come at the expense of your rights, your ethics, your morals, or your name. Can you share a little bit more with us about the story behind a girl you might know, foundation and what inspired you to take this experience and turn it into advocacy?
Cheval
I felt the experience in actually going the hard route was very, very valuable and very expensive. As we all know, lawsuits are very expensive. And I felt a large responsibility to give back in some way. Because when I decided to share my story publicly, there wasn’t really a solution. There wasn’t like, I figured it out, you know, and I still have it. I’m still very much in this active litigation. But I do think that some of the story loops and where you can typo some things in the mistakes where you learn the lesson. And where do you know that there is a conversation needed? And where resources fall short? How can we be resourceful. And the nonprofit is really to spill secrets, it is to say, Hey, this is what I actually experienced. And here’s where you should be careful. And while all of our journeys and situations and businesses are niche and nuanced, there are ways to apply the learnings to your business and to yourself that that is helpful. And I also had so many unique people come and support me and all that I was going through that I couldn’t imagine starting a new business and jumping into shoes and manifesting a whole new world. Without this element of real support for young artists and women and making them feel a sense of community should they ever experience their own form of challenges or adversities. And it’s, again, ongoing, it’s a journey. It’s not that we have all the answers. But the nonprofit is very technical, because we are providing advocacy and referrals to real lawyers to law firms that have to account for pro bono hours. We also are not lawyers, in building the foundation. And so because of that, we can’t give legal advice. But what we can do is share our experiences, we can share news and articles, we can provide resources and referrals. And so that’s where we become a little bit of the catalyst in, you know, absorb what you can hear. And then we’ll take you to where hopefully it will address your specific situation. And now we’re seeing tons of artists and even small businesses, entrepreneurs that just want to be in a good situation. And I believe two things can be true, I believe you can be super enthusiastic, super creative, and in a way feel like they’re all in ready to go. But you also have the boundaries, you’re also protected, you also have the right documentation, and you have the right partnership. The partnership aspect, I think, is one of the most challenging because while so much of come down to documenting and documentation, a lot of it comes down to interpretation, and how somebody is willing to argue something or the semantics of things, you can’t really explain in a contract, it goes way beyond that. And then you’re dealing with humans again, right. So you’re not just betting on the contract are betting on also who you’re working with.
Natalie Franke
Any advice you have for business owners in that respect, right there? Like is there something you would tell them, if they are looking to get into a partnership with either another company or you know, work with a partner, even in their business, any, you know, red flags to keep in mind when they’re, you know,
Cheval
getting into now that I’ve gone through stuff, I mean, I see so many red flags now, which is great, because I used to paint those pains, you know, but I, I delve a little nerdy in my approach now. And I actually related to studying for a test. When I was, you know, in grade school, I used to sit down and study hours and hours and hours, read every chapter, learn as much as I could, so that I could do well on the test. And I think it’s kind of an easy way to think about going into a job interview or going into a negotiation, that you do your research. And you actually give yourself time to prepare and understand and position yourself so that you know what questions to ask so that you can be an active listener as well. Because when you’re sitting in a room with somebody, you know what you want, hopefully you know before Interviewer before the meeting you, you know what your objective is. But the key is to really understand what the other person is also looking for. So that there is a real understanding of the positioning. And that both can be really clear and transparent. If you find yourself in a situation where somebody is saying, Oh, we’ll get to that later, let’s just get this contract done. Or, oh, you know, we’re really tight on time here, you know, there are these things that can feel like, Oh, we got rushed into this, we got to do it, we’ll just figure it out later. And it’s really the opposite, it is time to really understand and take a beat, and slow, right, like really slow to hire, you know, in that sense, so that you’re understanding how do they fight? How do they compromise? How do they? What’s the confrontation, you don’t have your first bite really early? Because you’re gonna want to know what is triggering, potentially, for that potential partner or for that situation, you should know what they want, and you should know what you want, and then work on it. It sounds
Natalie Franke
kind of nice, ya know, it’s such great advice, is there anything that looking back you wish you would have done differently, or any advice you’d impart that, you know, you’re like, I just don’t want you to make the same mistake.
Cheval
I tell myself every day Don’t be in a rush. Because every day in a rush, and I don’t know if it’s because I lived in New York for 15 years. But I have always in a rush to go to the next thing. And like, a designer mindset, I think, too, is you put all this work and effort into a collection, and then the collections out there, and then you’re going on to the next collection. You know, it’s like there’s there’s this constant like, next thing, next thing, and maybe there’s a part of that achievement focused like, you know, being mindful and slowing your role. stance is what I tell myself every day, that’s the lesson to learn is to be patient and to sit by the dock of the bay and carefully observe what is happening before we get into
Natalie Franke
that I mean, that’s something we all struggle with. I feel like every other day, there’s like, you know, a new social media platform or algorithm or you know, competitive consideration, we have to take into account or inflation or get like, there’s not a day in the last couple of years that has gone by that as a business owner hasn’t felt like you’re on a hamster wheel just like running endlessly, right and unable to stop the rush. And some of the urgency is true urgency, and sometimes it’s manufactured. And I just I love I really love that advice. What are you most excited about for the future? What just fires you up? Like you’ve gone through so much? What did though is like your joy, your hope? What are you looking forward to?
Cheval
I can’t wait to marry my fiance. I know that’s not a business answer. But you know, that’s just something we’ve really had to put on hold for a number of reasons. And having a support that I’ve had in my life with my fiance, I think it’s been so incredibly life changing, but just, I think to go through the adversities, and the setbacks and everything that we have, as a couple, I’m very proud of our relationship. And that is something I always want to celebrate is that if you have somebody in your life, you know, and it’s not necessarily love interest, but just a friendship, a parent or figure, a mentor, I think that can go a really long way. Because when we spend most of the day alone, working or in our little holes, and I have a tendency to really be afraid of it. You’re only listening to yourself all day, you know, and a lot of times, you’re not so kind to yourself, and you can get into these really bad dooms in your head of like, what could go wrong and constantly worrying and thinking about these scenarios, that probably will never happen, you know. So I think those moments of recognition and support and having relationships and friendships and mentorships and or maybe it’s a mentee that I think, are important to assess in your life and try to nurture so that you’re not alone.
Natalie Franke
I also just want to point out that there is nothing more refreshing than asking one of the most successful figures, truly and I mean this like successful entrepreneurial, creative figures, a question about what she’s excited about. And she talks about relationships. She talks about people, because so often I think in our journeys as independent business owners, we define success by what the world tells us to define it as like we’re excited about the next launch the next venture the next business opportunity. And what I loved in your answer is that it brought us right back to the fact that so much of the work that we’re doing is not for the work itself, but for the life we’re trying to build for Right. We’re not working for work sake, right? We’re working to live. And I think it was the I’m glad you didn’t give me a business answer. Because frankly, it was so refreshing just to be reminded that like, even those of us who are the most successful we go back to like the why, why are we doing this? And it’s to build a life that we love. And you are doing precisely that. And we are so excited for you. And we are so excited for you to marry your best friend. The final question I have, and I asked this of every guest on the podcast, and there isn’t a wrong answer. It’s just so cool to see everyone’s unique perspective, is this. cheval? What do you think is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail?
Cheval
I feel like it’s failure. It’s failure, it’s, we only see the highlight reels these days, I swear, and even the ones that are highlight reels are feel very manufactured in a way. I think, the more mistakes you make, and the more you fail. The process of elimination isn’t your favorite. You know, it’s almost like as long as you’re learning, of course, from those failures and those mistakes, but I think that that’s where the grit comes in. And that’s where the gumption to continue getting up when you’ve fallen down. And the ability to have that compare and contrast of having nothing having things stripped from you, and then having to get really creative and find a way forward. Because you always have a choice. You always have an option. And then the scenario of very limited resources, resourcefulness, kicking into high gear with cute shoes on.
Natalie Franke
I love that so much. I have no doubt that our listeners are gonna want to learn more about you find you on the interwebs many of them right now might be connecting the dots and being like, Wait, she is a girl that I know. I actually know her very, very well. Where can they go though, to stay in touch with you today? What are those social media handles? What’s the website? Go ahead and let us know.
Cheval
I am all that glitters on the gram. It’s like the longest handle name, but that’s actually the tag. Yeah, the podcast, my fiance and I started back in COVID. And so I kind of usurped that account as my personal account. And then we started she is cheval, which is a phrase she is shuffle. And that’s the French word for horse. That’s our other business, Instagram, but also creative base. I like to be really personal and the approach there. And a girl you might know foundation is the handling for a nonprofit NGO, you might know foundation.org.com. And yeah, I just hopped on threads. You know, that was fun.
Natalie Franke
Oh my gosh, threads has been just a whirlwind. What I do, I love it. I hope it’s here to stay cool. It’s refreshing. It’s refreshing. It’s like, you know, a cold lemonade on a summer day. It really is. digging it. Well. Thank you so much for joining me.
Cheval
Thank you. This is such a great chat. It’s always cathartic. I appreciate it.
Natalie Franke
No, I appreciate you.
Natalie Franke
That ends our episode of The Independent Business Podcast. Everything that we’ve discussed today can be [email protected]. Head to our website for access to show notes, relevant links and all of the resources that you need to level up. And if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss our future content. Drop us a review and leave our guests some love on social. Thanks again for listening.
