Natalie Franke
What is it like to go from the cubicle to being the CEO of your own company? That is precisely the question that we are asking Ellen Yin because she five years ago quit her corporate marketing job without a backup plan. She then turned a single $300 freelance contract as a marketing consultant into a seven figure business. To date. She has mentored over 10,000 other independent business owners through her online coaching programs, and she reaches 1000s each week on her top rated podcast, cubicle to CEO. In this conversation, we talk about a wide range of topics, everything from the fact that a lot of independent business owners get into this without realizing they want to run a business in the first place, all the way through the science of asking questions and one mistake you might be making when you close out your emails. As a part of your client flow. We’re getting into all of it. In today’s episode with Ellen, you don’t want to miss it. Hey, everyone, this is your host, Natalie Frank, and you’re listening to the independent business podcast, more people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs and creators to break down the science of self made success so that you can achieve victory.
Natalie Franke
Ellen, thank you so much for joining me,
Ellen Yin
Natalie, I am so stoked to be here. Thank you for having me.
Natalie Franke
I’m going to kick us off with a fun stat. Okay, we’re gonna we’re gonna make some numbers right off the bat here, because I know you and I both love, love our numbers. We recently ran a survey. And in that survey, we found that nearly three quarters of independent business owners say that they did not always intend on being a business owner. 72% didn’t always intend on being a business owner. And for about two in five, that own independent business today. It just started for them as a side hustle. 43% just started as a side hustle. And I’m curious in your journey, first of all, did you always know you were going to be a business owner? And what did that journey look like from your first freelancing project to where you are today?
Ellen Yin
I love that style. It’s so interesting to me, but it also makes me feel so seen because I myself am also an accidental entrepreneur. So to answer your first question, no, I did not intend on being a business owner. In fact, I was so I guess, on acclimated to this idea of being a business owner that in high school, I remember there were two business classes that some people took. And I honestly, Natalie, I’m almost embarrassed to say this. But I honestly didn’t even understand what the like what you would learn in a business class. I was like, Is it like a form of math? Like, are you learning accounting? Like, I just did not understand this concept. And so my journey into entrepreneurship, really were a series of steps where I just felt curious about something, leaned into it, and then it sparks something else. So what happened is back in 2017, I was 23 years old at the time, I had been in this corporate job for about 10 months. And I just knew that was not the place I was supposed to be. At that point, I did not think, Oh, I’m going to quit this job and start my own thing. I just thought, oh, quit this job. And look for another role, that’s a better fit for me. So I actually did something pretty drastic. I quit this full time job without a backup plan. I had nothing lined up not even an interview at another company. And it was a couple days before Christmas. So I kind of just took the holidays. And I was like, You know what, we’ll figure this out in the new year. And then what ended up happening is, after the holidays, I ended up connecting with an old colleague of mine, someone I had worked with on teams at this corporate job, but we didn’t know each other that well. So he actually was like, hey, through your work at this corporate job, I heard through the grapevine that you know a thing or two about Instagram marketing. And my wife and I, on the side, we actually have a family business, we own these two coffee stands, we don’t have a lot of presence on social media, and we’d love for your help with this. So that was my first freelance project that started at all Natalie, it was a $300 invoice. I remember that clearly. I had to go to dinner with them to like propose the thing in person. It was a whole ordeal. But it really opened my eyes to this opportunity that I have a skill set that I can monetize outside of a traditional job structure. And that’s what started it all.
Natalie Franke
Wow. So truly from a $300 invoice to a what seven figure business?
Ellen Yin
Yeah, I mean, seven figure business. I always hesitate how that term is used because different people think of it differently. We’ve made more than I think at this point $5 million in the business over the course of the last five years. I have not made seven figures in a single year. So it depends on how you define that but yes, either way, it’s just mind blowing to me. cuz standing there with that client when we signed, you know the paper, I would have never pictured being where I am today.
Natalie Franke
That’s amazing. What were some of the challenges that you faced in that experience of going from, you know, first freelance project, all the way to the company that you’ve built? Now? What What were some of the hurdles and obstacles?
Ellen Yin
I think this might be not exactly the answer that you would expect. But my naivete was a big superpower. For me, I think I didn’t know what I didn’t know, because I wasn’t one of those people that carefully prepped and planned to exit the corporate life and start a business, I kind of just didn’t have a whole lot of fear in a weird way going into this, because I didn’t have a whole lot of expectations. And so therefore, all the challenges that came were more things that were just learning curves of Oh, like, okay, taxes became so much more difficult, that’s frustrating, or like, Oh, this is how you hire someone, or these are the things that could potentially cause challenges. In the workplace as someone who’s new to hiring or new to being a leader new to being a boss, just roles that I had never anticipated for myself and roles that I was woefully, you know, an untrained and unprepared for. So like any business owner, I’ve had many challenges, you know, months where we lost money, and there was no profit in the business. So things like that certainly have come up. And I don’t want to paint this picture of, oh, you know, business is perfect, and everything is sunshine and rainbows. But I think the one thing that I did not struggle with as much as most people that I’ve talked to maybe have struggled with, especially towards the beginning was the imposter syndrome. I think because of my ignorance, quite frankly, I just didn’t have a chance to be to be, I guess, insecure about what I was doing, because I really didn’t know what I was doing. And I didn’t know what was normal or not normal. So therefore, I just kind of like blazed ahead, you know, full sail.
Natalie Franke
And blazing ahead, you’ve learned a lot You really did, you had the courage to take those leaps. And in doing so you’ve learned an immense amount. And one of those things I had come across my feed very recently, and it and I’ve been doing this for 15 years. It hit me, it just hit me. So we’re gonna talk about that in just one second. But I want to tee up a little bit of science into what we’re about to talk about. So the reality is questions hijack the brain, the moment you hear a question, the moment you are asked a question, you can’t think of anything else, your brain immediately goes to answer that question. If I asked you, you know, what did you have for breakfast? And I give space for that you are immediately trying to remember what did I have for breakfast and you lose sight of all the other parts of the conversation. And that is a very powerful tool. Back in 1993 social scientists, Vicki Moore with Eric Johnson, David Schmidt line conducted a study with more than 40,000 participants that revealed that simply asking someone, if people were going to purchase a new car within the next six months, increased the likelihood they would purchase a car by 35%. asking them the question. And by the way, this isn’t the only study that has shown that an even earlier study was published in the Journal of Applied Psychology asked citizens whether they were going to vote in an upcoming election. Now asking them that question, just asking them if they’re going to vote, it increased the likelihood that they would vote by 25%. And I say all of that to say questions are incredibly powerful as you’re moving into this independent business CEO mindset. And so you were sharing what you call it a conversion killer, I believe in how a lot of us are ending our emails. And so you said, Stop ending your emails with let me know if you’re interested. Why, why should we not enter emails with let me know if you’re interested? And what should we do instead?
Ellen Yin
Natalie, I am so excited that you are equally as passionate about this as I am in the fact that you took the time to do all of that research. So cool. I didn’t know some of those data points, but it makes complete sense as you’re sharing them. So the reason why I recommend people do not end their emails with let me know if you’re interested, is because a statement does not invite conversation, write a statement, essentially, when somebody reads that you’re giving them permission, or essentially, you’re automatically giving them that leeway to be like, oh, I’ll just take a mental raincheck on responding to this because there’s there’s no open loop, right? We we as humans, we are primed to respond to questions, as you said, and we don’t want to leave people hanging. It’s the reason why when you said hey, if you ask someone a question, like, what did you have for breakfast? Based on social norms? It would be really weird for you to sit there and just be completely silent, right? Like of course you’re going to respond to that question. It’s kind of the same thing digitally. If you ask someone a clear direct question, especially at the end of the email, the likelihood that they will respond is much higher because they don’t want to leave you digitally hanging, right? They want to close that loop. And answer that question. A statement does not work the same way, because a statement is essentially saying, okay, somewhere down the line, if you remember that you’re interested, and if you’ve been remembered to respond, let me know, let me know. And it’s, it’s just such a closed ended way to, to end an email, but I see it happen all the time. And it’s not just let me know, if you’re interested. It’s all of its variants, right? Let me know if that works for you. Let me know if you want to meet all of those things are examples of someone reading that and going, Okay, I’ll take a mental rain check on your question or your statement rather.
Natalie Franke
And I’m guilty of doing that myself. When I get an email that ends in that way, I will very likely leave it unread in my inbox, thinking that maybe one day, maybe one day in the future, when life isn’t so chaotic, I will get back to that email and spoiler alert friends, is life ever. Not that chaotic? No, I never go back. And then so much time passes, that I feel so much guilt about never responding that unfortunately, I become the ghost that we all dread, where I just archive it and move on with my life. So you are nailing a very key aspect of human behavior. Now, for the person who normally ends the email that way, okay, who says okay, just let me know, if you’re interested in I’m using my passive voice here, intentionally, because that’s how I read it. When I when I read that in someone’s email to me, what should we do instead? What how should we close out that email? Do you have any recommendations for us?
Ellen Yin
I do, I want you to think of yourself as a guide. Okay. Think of yourself as How can I make this the easiest possible for someone to respond for them to burn the least amount of brain calories to know what they should say? Because that’s another thing too, is when you place the responsibility on someone else to respond, sometimes because their lives are chaotic, or because they have a lot going on? It can it can almost feel overwhelming, like, Oh, I better wait to respond for when I have time to really sit down and think about what I’m going to say right? We’ve all felt that way before. But when someone asks us a very clear, specific question, it reduces that friction of responding because we don’t have to sit there and think about all the possible things we could say. We only have to answer that one direct question. So a good question you could ask is, would you like to move forward with this? Is this a good fit for you? Which of these options do you prefer? What time? Would you like to meet all of these? Do you see all these are very specific. And again, like you mentioned earlier, Natalie, in that in that study about car buying, when someone was asked, Are you going to buy a car and the likelihood that they did was much higher? I think it’s because you are placing a direct intention in someone’s mind right at the forefront of their brain. So again, if you’re asking someone, would you like to move forward with this? That intention is now sitting in the front of their brain? They’re thinking, well, I need to decide, do I want to move forward with this? Yes or no. And I think helping someone make a decision. Facilitating a decision is one of the most powerful moves you can make in business, especially when it comes to conversion and sales.
Natalie Franke
I love that. So so much. This is a great reminder for anyone listening, this is the time go back, revisit your client flow, look through those email templates. Are there little tweaks you could make based on all of that advice that Elon just shared? Right now today? It can take two minutes. That’s it, jump into a template and conclude it with a question. And with a strong question. I love how tactical and actionable that advice is. One thing that I really love about you, Elon is just how innovative you are in marketing yourself, your business, you aren’t afraid to try new things, you take risks, you are constantly paying attention to, you know, what’s happening on different platforms. And so I’m really curious, is that something that comes naturally to you? Is that something you’ve had to learn as a business owner and any tips you have for us and just being so innovative ourselves when it comes to marketing our independent businesses?
Ellen Yin
Well, thank you for that huge compliment not I think, honestly, I think it’s something that has always come naturally to me, mostly because I’m a very curious person. I think curiosity is one of the most underrated strengths that you can have as an entrepreneur. So it’s not that I know everything, or I’m this genius, or you know, that just everything comes easy to me. It really is because I’m willing to get curious and ask a lot of questions, and therefore in conversation with people idea, Spark. And so I think that’s, that’s the key to creativity is actually collaboration. And so even, for example, when we’re talking about, let’s say, partnerships, partnerships, especially between brands is a huge part of our business model as a media company. So we have to talk to brands all day long and really understand what are their goals for this year? What initiatives are they working on? What incentives can we align on and But that requires a lot of curiosity requires a lot of question asking and thinking about. Okay, so this is your goal over here. And this is our goal over here. How do we meet in the middle? How do we find fun ways, creative ways, unique ways to pour both of our resources and our communities together in order to achieve one shared common mission. So, you know, we’ve had the pleasure of working with honey book before as a partner, and it’s, it’s so much fun, I think, if you treat business like a game, and you don’t think inside this rulebook of, okay, it’s always been done XYZ way, therefore, I need to follow this formula. But instead you look at it like, Okay, if I put, you know, roll this dice and move my character over here and color this a different thing, what could happen, and just staying very open to those possibilities is such a game changer.
Natalie Franke
When I hear you say that I hear and I’m reminded of the fact that when we experience immense amount of pressure, in business, when we feel the weight of that pressure on us, it increases a lot of the stress hormones in our bodies, cortisol, for instance. And that actually makes our brains more more rigid, it actually inhibits us from kind of having that plasticity that allows us to think beyond the bounds of what we know, I think of it a lot like a GPS, like it’s kind of saying, you know, when we feel that pressure, we feel like we have to zero in and go from point A to point B and there are no room, there’s no room for detours, no room for exploration, innovation, adapting none of that. But what I’m hearing you say is instead of feeling that pressure, you’ve had this mindset of curiosity, and play, and that curiosity and play what it actually does to the brain is it increases levels of cannabinoids and opioids that are endogenous to our bodies, right like that aren’t from the outside, we’re not talking about drugs, here, friends, we’re talking about actual hormones you already have inside of you, it increases levels of those sorts of things. And what it does is it actually makes your brain more plastic and enables you to see possibilities that you wouldn’t have seen before to put yourself in positions that maybe you wouldn’t have put yourself in before will link to some really cool science on play in the shownotes. If that’s something you’re interested in, and I know, the Hebron podcast has an amazing episode on this highly recommend listening to as well, the point being, I’m hearing that that level of play and curiosity kind of abound in your overall approach to business and life. And you can see how that has played out in your ability to grow, you know, in a multitude of ways now leaning into that growth that you’ve experienced, you’ve gone from just being, you know, one, a team of one your own boss, and that, as we all know, is hard enough, that is a challenge as a solopreneur. If that’s the position you’re in, that is hard. But you’ve expanded your team you’ve grown and brought on employees. I want to talk a little bit about that one. When did you know it was time to hire and to what have you learned as a leader in that experience of going from just leading yourself which again, we know is hard to leading a team.
Ellen Yin
Oh, my goodness, we could talk for hours about this. And I’m still I’m still very much in the trenches learning as a leader on this particular topic. I think it’s actually my weakest area as a business owner. In terms of my own skill set and aptitude for you know, it does it that part like friendship connection comes really easy to meet management does not come easy to me it is like not something that I enjoy or that I thrive in. So I would say my first year of business 2018, completely solo, I did all the projects, all the things were all the hats. In 2019, my second year of business, I hired a part time contractor to start helping me with some of our client accounts. At the time, our business model was still a boutique marketing agency. So we were doing at done for you social media management for a multitude of clients. And so I brought her on to help with you know, small things at first, I think actually, her first project was literally putting together like kind of like a capstone report for this influencer marketing campaign, we had run for a client, and then it kind of delved into, okay, could you help with hashtags here? Could you populate some captions here? And it just kind of snowballed, you know. And actually, by that summer of 2019, she had, you know, really taken on a lot in that business. And then soon after, became my first full time employee. And then it’s, it’s funny looking back because you know, my business. Although we’re more than five years now, in the grand scheme of business, we’re still married very much a baby, right? When you look at Legacy businesses that have been around for generations, but it’s really one thing that I hold very dear is that very first employee eventually went on to read and start her own business, but she still is part of our team to this day, in a different role. Her role has changed many times. She’s now a Community Manager in one of our programs. But the fact that we’ve kept that relationship so strong Over the years and have been able to adapt to each other’s changing lives and changing businesses, I think speaks volume to the privilege that we have as independent business owners to not do business, the the expected or corporate way to not have to, you know, completely cut ties with someone because their ambitions may change or whatever it may be. So we have that adaptability as independent business owners that I think we really, really need to lean into. So anyways, from that point, fast forward to this day, I have two full time employees, and a few amazing contractors that I work with on a regular basis to help produce all of the content that we put out on cubicle to CEO to help with client work. And I think the biggest lesson that I’ve learned in leadership and hiring is, when you are starting out as an independent business owner as a solopreneur. Everything in your mind, speaking of questions, everything that you come across your natural question is, how do I do this? Or what do I need to do? Right? You’re asking a lot of how and what questions, the more you evolve as a leader, the more you have to train your brain to not ask so much how and what but instead, who, who would be the best fit for this, who could lead this project who could whatever it may be, right, and that’s a totally different approach is a totally different mindset. And it is a transition, especially when you’re used to doing everything yourself. And so I really had to learn that and I’ve really had to learn how to allow people to, to make mistakes, and to figure it out on their own in the same way that we had to figure it out on our own because you can be there as a guide and a mentor and a support. But it does not mean that you have to treat you know your employees really any different than how you how you treat a business, you can allow them that same room for for safe play and for failure and for all those things, because that’s how they’re going to learn as well.
Natalie Franke
Google did a study on what makes the most effective teams. And what’s interesting about Google is you have Rhodes Scholars, you have MIT graduates, you have the brightest, oftentimes in the world coming into those rooms to work. And yet, they found that it wasn’t intelligence that created incredible teams, they found that it was psychological safety, the ability for people on a team to do exactly what you just described, which is feel safe, to make mistakes, feel safe to voice their thoughts and opinions, bring their lived experience to the table, right show up as their true selves and know that they’re going to be met, not with Well, if you screw up, you’re out of here, you make one mistake, you’re gone, right? That’s that pressure we’re talking about. They’re actually encouraged to be curious to explore and to learn on their own so that they can grow into those roles and have success. So I, I hear a lot of wisdom in your leadership, even though you’re saying, you know, I’m learning everyday. And we all are. But again, it’s that that endless curiosity that is so so, so powerful. Now, I want to talk for a second about doubt. Because we talked a little about some aspects of the CEO mindset, whether it’s leadership, it’s question asking even how we shift our questions, like you said, from the What the How to the who, Gosh, what a CEO hat that is, I want to talk about the doubt aspect of the CEO mindset. Because the reality is, from the outside looking in, it can be easy to assume that someone like you who’s had this success, who’s growing this team who’s built this profitable business, you know, doesn’t feel doubt, doesn’t feel fear or insecurity in any way. However, I’m willing to bet that that’s not always the case. And so I’m curious how you confront doubt. How do you navigate it when you know you’re launching something big or you have a massive goal, and there’s that insecurity that starts to creep up and creep in? What do you do in those scenarios? How do you push past it?
Ellen Yin
One thing that has helped me a lot in combating doubt, is reminding myself of the impermanence of many of our decisions. I think, as CEOs, as business owners, we often attach too much to our expected outcomes of something because we feel that we have already risked so much to even be here building our businesses. So every further risk we take, take feels like this has to work out or else right. But I think one of the things that has actually aided me most in our trajectory, and our growth has been this willingness to realize that many of the decisions we make in business and in life, quite frankly, are not permanent in the sense that they can be reversed, right? They’re not so final as we would make them out to be and so I find a lot of comfort in that when I doubt in times of doubt, and and when I’m unsure. Is this the right move? Are we doing this the right way? I think, okay, I can sit here and think all day in my head. But the truth is, and you and I both really align here, the data is going to tell the true story, right? You have to put it out there to gather the information to get the data How to make more informed decisions. You know, if you’re just the blind leading the blind in your own head or or you know hypothesizing with your team or riffing with friends, although that is valuable, if that’s the place that you remain stuck in, the truth is no one really knows until until you put it out there. And that data is so valuable. And so these days, I don’t feel as fearful of just like doing things, even if I’m not sure what the outcome will be. Because I find so much value in the information that is collected from that experience that regardless of whether it turned out the way I thought it would, or it doesn’t, I still feel like it was a win. I’m like, awesome, I have data now, that will help me make a smarter decision next time. And that to me is worth the try. I love it,
Natalie Franke
you do a lot with transparency as well. So you talk about, you know, the data you’re getting internally and how you’re kind of navigating that. But I do want to shine a light on the fact that you are incredibly transparent. When it comes to numbers, and you even share on your podcast, you know, income reports, for example, you are not one to shy away from getting real about the numbers. And I’m curious as to your why there because I have a suspicion there might be something deeper going on here to see someone at your level to just be so transparent with numbers talking about it bringing bringing that into how you educate. Why do you feel like that’s important?
Ellen Yin
Oh, my goodness, this is like this is what our entire media platform is built around cubicle the CEO was created to bring a transparent lens to business stories, right, we want to tell the stories of a of underrepresented entrepreneurs. But too, we want to do it through a financially transparent lens. Because I think when we’re afraid of talking about money, when we keep people in the dark, it only hurts us in the end, right all of us. And I think as we collectively share data, share information, share transparency, we collectively raise our financial IQ, which again empowers us to make smarter decisions to ask for, you know, the right rates for the work that we’re doing to advocate. For other people. There’s so many I think benefits of coming to the table and normalizing talking about money in in industries, with your peers, with your bosses, with your friends with your family loved ones, you name it. And so really though it started out I mean, that’s the mission now, but it started out like many things in a much simpler way. For me, what encouraged me to first start sharing my income reports was actually other women, other women who had trailblaze away, when I first started as a solopreneur, I was just a freelance social media manager with again, no context for what business really was what I should be charging, I felt like everything I was doing was kind of just flying by the seat of my pants. But then I started to find some income reports, mostly on blogs that it wasn’t super common still isn’t super common today, but more becoming more and more common, which is great. But at the time, I found, you know, a couple income report blogs, and I just started reading them and realizing things that I don’t think I would have become aware of as quick or maybe ever had I not been exposed to that information, things like, Oh, I didn’t realize like, this is how you allocate the money that you earn, like how you actually spend it, like what are the expenses that I should be investing in to help me grow my business, or, Oh, that’s really smart that you aim for this percentage of profit, so that you can save X amount for taxes and then X amount for reinvestment and growth and X amount to pay yourself. Oh, that’s how you manage that cash flow. Or oh, like, I didn’t know that you could charge this much for this type of service, or this type of work with a client. So it was all of these new input things that would have taken me years of experience to come across myself, but because someone else was willing to open the doors, and, you know, give me a peek inside their business at their books, I was able to learn these things at an expedited rate. And so in having experienced that myself, Natalie, I was I was just overcome with this desire, this urge to pay it forward. I was like, if someone else did that for me, how cool would it be if I could share what I’m learning in my business, what my business is actually making, but not just making what what we’re spending on and what we’re profiting and what we’re learning on the way and the strategies that we’re trying that work and don’t work. If I could bring people with me into that conversation, maybe I could do for someone else what they did for me. And so that’s how it started. It was just these emails these written reports that I did in 2019 until I switch to doing quarterly income reports on our podcast on cubicle to CEO and now every 90 days for four years. I’ve shown up and shared exactly what our business makes spend some profits and all of the lessons along the way and it has been honestly one of the most favorite things I’ve ever done in my business.
Natalie Franke
That’s incredible to hear, as we close this out, I first want to say, there have been just nuggets on nuggets of wisdom with each question I have just been blown away, and I know you very well. And here I am, like wishing I could be taking notes, I have to be re listening to this one. Take some notes myself, there’s a question that I love to ask at the end of every episode, because this is a podcast about the science of self made success. And so, Elon, I’m really curious, what do you think is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail?
Ellen Yin
Oh, easy. It is an affinity for failure, a love for it actually, the desire to fail as often as possible, because like, like we talked about today, not data, drives everything right. And you cannot, you truly cannot become the person you want to be or grow the business you want to have. If you are basing everything, filtering everything through the lens of your own lived experience, because what you know, limits what you can drain, right. And so until you put yourself out there and experience, a lot of things meet a lot of people fail a whole ton. It’s not possible for you to think bigger. And so when I look at all the most successful entrepreneurs I admire, they are hand in hand with failure. They are linked together, and they’re excited about it. And so I think if you can fail forward and fail fast, you are going to do so much for your business compared to just trying to, you know, navigate everything with as much perfection as possible.
Natalie Franke
What an answer, Ellen, I have no doubt that our listeners are going to want to know where they can find you what you’re what you’re working on. Can you share that with us before we close it out?
Ellen Yin
Absolutely. Well, again, thank you so much for this conversation for this time. If you enjoyed my conversation today with Natalie, please come hang out with us on our podcast, cubicle to CEO wherever you’re listening to this one. And our show we ask successful entrepreneurs the business questions you can’t google. So actually, Natalie and cubicle to CEO like these two podcasts, the Independent Business Podcast and cubicle to see are such a great pair because on one, you get to look at all of the amazing science that you can Google but probably don’t take the time to write. So Natalie short cuts out for you. And then on our end, you get to listen into all the questions that you really can’t discover on Google. So that would be the best place to hang out. But if you want to just shoot me a note to say hi, I am on Instagram at Miss Ellen yen. And I would love to chat with you and hear more about your amazing independent small business.
Natalie Franke
And I can say her podcast is phenomenal. So if you’ve enjoyed any of our episodes, you need to also hop over there, hit that subscribe button and make sure that you’re listening in as well as the cubicle to CEO podcast. Ellen, thank you so much for joining me today. This has just been incredible.
Ellen Yin
Thank you so much. Net you’re the best.
Natalie Franke
That ends our episode of The Independent Business Podcast. Everything that we’ve discussed today can be [email protected]. Head to our website for access to show notes, relevant links and all of the resources that you need to level up. And if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss our future content. Drop us a review and leave our guests some love on social. Thanks again for listening.
