Audrey Joy Kwan on breaking out of the curse of expertise

Akua: Prepare to listen to this episode on repeat. If you are a business owner that is ready to scale and grow your team, then this conversation is for you. Audrey Joy Kwan, who is a business strategist and leadership coach for agency owners, joins us on the show to talk about how we can scale our business in a way that is sustainable and doesn’t compromise our wellbeing.

We learn of Audrey’s powerful inspiration behind her brand and in depth look into hiring and building a team. And she walks us through the curse. of expertise. This episode is packed with so many valuable insights. So get ready to take a lot of notes and let’s get into the episode. Hey everyone, this is your host Akua Kanaru and you’re listening to the independent business podcast.

More people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I get to sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs, and Hello.

Hello, Audrey. Welcome to the independent business podcast. How are we doing? 

Audrey: I am good. Thank you for having me here. I’m excited to chat today. 

Akua: Yes. I’m so excited to talk with you because I feel like we’re just going to talk about all the things. I think you have a powerful story. I think it’s amazing what you do as a business owner and you also have a very unique perspective when it comes to niching and like our expertise.

So I would love to just know how did you, and I think our audience too would love to know like, of like how essentially did you fall into entrepreneurship? 

Audrey: Yeah, you see. I didn’t start my career thinking that I would be a business owner like far from it I had a major life event that happened to change my perspective on things And you know before I get into that, let me take you back a little further so you can see How the dots actually connected so I come from a very traditional asian family where When you finish school, you have like three options for your life.

You have the choice of being a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer, or, you know, outside of that, maybe an accountant, right? Those were the choices that were expected of you. And so I went to school thinking that I was going to be a lawyer. And I had actually taken political science because The way that I was going to change the world looked like this in my 20s I was gonna become a lawyer get into politics and change policy.

That was exactly how I was gonna do it, right? Uh, it didn’t work out that way. I had received an internship To the federal government. I live in canada So the federal internship was in ottawa and I had spent a good few months there only to realize that If this was the life I would not make it like I just would not make that I couldn’t see myself in that cubicle.

I couldn’t see myself In politics and at that point I had been already three years into my poli sci degree and um There’s the saving grace was during my time during that internship. I was invited to this committee This is going to age me. This was like 20 years ago and in that That committee that I was invited to was then called e services, which is really like the first form of like digital marketing you can imagine.

And it really pulled me in and got me interested in marketing. So when I finished school, I came back and I knew that I did not want to waste the three years of cash that I’d spent in my, uh, college education. I finished my degree, but I started to look for jobs. In marketing and, uh, my goal was to land inside agencies and I did that.

I finished school and made some connections and landed in agency. So marketing agencies, and I spent the better half of those years working up the ladder in agency. So coordinator, a manager, director, all those things before I went client side. So client side means that the agency has clients and then the client hires you to go in and build their marketing team.

And that was. That was the dream to get to go client side and climb the corporate ladder. And I didn’t really see much else other than that, because, you know, the, the way that I was taught to have a career was to climb a corporate ladder. And here I was climbing this corporate ladder. Everything looked good on the outside like the career the money the title you name it.

It all looked good, right? But on the inside, I think there was always something missing always this thought that there could be more but also the fear of taking that step into whatever more was and then one day I get a call from my mom and she’s in toronto and she says You know, I’m, I’m not feeling well.

I’m flying home today, like right away. And she hopped on the plane and five, six hours later, she was back in Vancouver. Uh, the first thing that she did was, uh, go to the hospital. She went in the hospital, checked in and they did not know what was wrong with her for a few days. They did a whole bunch of exams and x rays.

And we found out that she had pancreatic cancer and stage four pancreatic, pancreatic cancer at that. She passed away in three weeks. So from being diagnosed to going to the hospital, she passed away in three weeks. And um, during that time, there was a social worker that was in the hospital who had met with every single immediate family member.

And that social worker had said to me, you know, it’s time to say all the things that you want to say to your mom, and also ask all the questions that you want to ask of her. I mean, in that state, like, In that place, I couldn’t even think of the questions. Like there was, it was just, it wasn’t the thing where, you know, you pull a piece of paper and you start writing down the questions.

It didn’t look like that. And so, you know, when she passed, one of the biggest questions that came to mind that I never had answered was if you. Could have done anything with your life that you weren’t afraid to do. What would have that been? And I wish I had asked her that question And I you know, obviously I did not know what the answer was But it really encouraged me to pursue that question for myself And her passing was also an inspiration for me in this business that I started my mom was A type.

She worked very hard, didn’t take vacations. Uh, her identity was her work and, you know, to be very honest, she was not always present when we were doing things, right? Her mind was somewhere else. And she did the best that she could as a mom and I love her as my mom. But there were realities that I, I just saw that had happened for her.

And I believe that if she had had the right supports in her work the right systems and also The right leadership that perhaps she would have been able to live more of her life rather than to have died So young and so That encouraged me to really think about what I want to do for myself and who I want to become in this world.

And the business that I started and it’s still, it’s still here. So I have a consultancy and it’s a 10 year old business. And we help agency owners leverage strategy and leadership to grow a sustainable business where the owner isn’t stuck in the weeds. And that business is inspired by my mom. And this, this.

ideal person that I loved and wanted to be successful for, I had taken the wrong path in, in how to get there. And only after she passed, I realized that the way that I was going to really contribute and change the world and do it in a way that was passion led and purpose led was to see my mom as inspiration for this business.

Yeah. And so it’s, you know, You know, it’s been 10 years and the business continues to grow and thrive and change. And yeah, that’s how I became a business owner. It definitely wasn’t, I had this inkling that I wanted to be a business owner from day one. No, it was really this journey and connecting the dots and, and taking a leap of faith and also, um, overcoming that fear that I had.

And I think had always been the fear of failing at something. And when my mom passed, I realized you can’t really fail at something if you’re doing something that you truly love. 

Akua: Oh my gosh, that is just so good and just so so powerful and number one just thank you so much for sharing because i’m like that’s definitely not an easy thing and There there’s so many similarities to in our stories.

Like I my family i’m first generation Uh, my family’s from ghana and that was literally The same thing where I either had to be a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, like those were like this essentially the same options and really, you know, navigating that pressure of like, Trying to do what you would love to do, but then also wanting to make, uh, your, your family happy.

And so even that, and then also to just walking through the loss of your mom and how that truly just changed the trajectory of your business, where you are now leading a very, uh, passion first, like purpose led business and the amount of impact that you’re making for other business owners to really create a business.

And that they love and that they also have the freedom to truly enjoy their life, spend time with their families, um, where they can be more present, um, you know, do hobbies that they enjoy, travel, just live a life that they’ve always been meant to live. And you help business owners see that and attain it, which is just truly just amazing.

And even just how you are doing that, even for yourself, um, is just truly amazing. Amazing. So thank you so much for sharing that. There’s many business owners that want to scale and, you know, and may feel that it does come at a cost. And so what do you think, or like, even with you, as you were building your own agency, what were some things that you made sure that you had in place that you wouldn’t burn out?

Audrey: Yeah, that’s such a great question. I think, When you’re building an agency and first off, let’s just define when agency is at a bare basic definition an agency is a service based business that employs other people to support implementation Right like at the very basic definition And if you want to grow a business where you don’t burn out You do build a team like if you want a service based business We don’t burn out and I should say if you want that business to grow past a certain dollar amount There is There is no wrong way or right way to do it If you want your business stay at a certain dollar amount because you want to stay solo go for it That’s your dream do it, right?

I think if you want a business where you don’t burn out and you want to grow that business We really can’t avoid the idea of building a team And for me in order for a team to work Well function well and help you as the business owner step out You really have to care for that team. So the reality is that people don’t want to work hard for a job that doesn’t care about them as a person.

And so what does care mean? I mean, we could put many definitions to care, but for me, caring really means understanding the strengths, the motivators and Leaning into the confidence and the competence of the people that you bring on and as a leader I see that I see my job as first off tapping into people’s strengths So not defining their strengths for them, but tapping into the current strengths, and I’m not a mind reader You’re not a mind reader.

So how do we actually see into people’s strengths? I’m a believer in assessments and that’s the fastest way that I can get a good handle on someone’s strengths And here’s the thing once we know someone’s strengths and we help them lean into into those strengths We not only honor who they are in the job We create a happier environment for them and if you want to step out of your business and do different things and do more things while Tapping into the strengths of your people is really important A core, a core thing that just you need to do in order to make sure that your team is happy and that you can step out.

The other thing is knowing what motivates the people in your team. Motivation is different. Just because one thing motivates you as a leader doesn’t mean it motivates the other. The next person on your team and finding the motivators are really key If you want a business of scales, you’ve got to know how to motivate your people And motivation isn’t always money, but I will say this I firmly believe that everyone should pay a living wage To people on their team and living wage to me is defined by understanding, of course, where that person in your business lives, because it’s going to look different if they live in the Philippines versus New York, for example, living wage, right?

So motivator people, I hear people say, well, some people aren’t motivated by money. And I’ll tell you this, you know, if you can’t meet your basic needs, you are motivated by money. Mm hmm. Right. So motivator, right. So as motivators, you know, I want to say, yes, money is a motivator. Okay. So it is a motivator because it does help meet basic needs for people.

And that’s required to have a healthy team and other people are motivated by teamwork and ambition. And it’s our job as a leader to build a business that helps others. Feel that they can come to work and be motivated in the work by making sure we understand what their motivators are, not just what our motivators are.

And the other two things, I think if you’re looking to build a truly scalable business, one where you can actually step out and get out of the weeds, we got to look at confidence and competence, truly caring about your people is looking at and helping them build confidence. Competence and build confidence, right?

So there are two different things. Confidence is the belief that they have what it takes to do the job. Competence is the actual skill. You can have confidence and not competence. I’ll say that again. You can have confidence, but not competence, right? And well being is really both building confidence and competence.

And people ask me, okay, well, If we’re talking about competence, you know, how do we build that? Shouldn’t we expect the people we hired to have a level of competence already? Yes. The answer is, of course, you want people that you bring on to have a level of competence, but we have to remember business changes, right?

When business change, competence levels change, projects change, competence levels change through projects. And so as a leader, if we want our team to be able to grow with us, there are a few key Have to be done and one of the things is provide training I mean training is just so important. It sounds like it sounds like such an obvious thing But there are companies out there There are there are people out there who are not providing training for their teams And I think that is one of the bare basics that we see in In our current economy that is completely required because the economy is changing so quickly and so you need to provide the people the training they need to get the job done for now, not five years ago.

And assigning authority, this is another thing about competence that is just so important. Oftentimes when we are delegating work out, To people, we think that we are giving them everything that they need, but the challenge, the core challenge that I see leaders bump up against is not being very clear on the authority that the person has, according to the project.

Right. And when there is a lack of clarity for what the authority looks like, well, guess what? You’re on a different page than that person. And when you’re on a different page than that person, typically what ends up happening is you have the whole, I have to redo this myself dilemma show up. Because you’re not clear about the authority.

And so, you know, part of competence is you being clear on the authority you want to give this person and communicating that authority. And the last thing I’ll say on competence is this, uh, encourage initiative taking, like this is where the phrase, like, don’t come to me with problems, come to me with solutions is so important.

And that’s what encouraging initiative taking, um, means, right. Which then leads us to Confidence building confidence. Oh my goodness. I I can’t say I can’t say this enough If someone is not confident in their job, they can never perform at the highest level And one of the key things to building confidence is To remove fear from the equation.

When people have fear at work, they’re unlikely to think independently. For example, if someone feels anxious that they’re going to lose their jobs, they can’t perform at their best because guess what they’re doing. They’re looking over their shoulders constantly thinking that what’s the next thing that I’m going to do that might get me fired, which keeps them in the super safe zone and never actually taking the initiative that you want them to take.

And that’s why it’s so important to help people feel like feel like they’re vital to your goals and your missions. And you do that by providing constructive feedback and really engaging them in decision making. When people are invested in goals and invested in the team, they actually will go that extra mile.

And part of that is encouraging them to speak up to debate and brainstorm. Give them the ability to express their creativity. 

Akua: Yes. Oh my gosh. You just shared so much goodness from beginning to end, because I think these are things that business owners, right? When these are very foundational things, if you’re like, Hey, I’m ready to scale and I want to build a team.

These are core things that you need to be thinking about. And I loved how you talked about the assessments, because even in the small business world, like in our industry, the Enneagram was such a big thing that took over right. That we were all talking about it, but then like thinking about like, Oh, like if you have a or you’re wanting to and want to actually bring somebody on, what are their strengths?

And one of the best ways to do that is those assessments. And like, even at honey book, we have leaned into the Clifton strengths. And I have learned very new things about myself that I did not even realize. Like even new skills and things that I just didn’t realize that I do. And it’s been really cool to see, um, people at honey book that like, see those skills in me and I see their skills too.

And it’s like, okay, how do we collaborate? And also do they really foster this really great community of like, We lean more into our strengths than our weaknesses. Like, of course, our weaknesses is something that we always want to work on, but your strengths is what’s going to really propel you forward.

And I think that’s just so important. And I love that you highlighted that because I think too, even as business owners, as you are really thinking about what it, like who you want to even bring on. Think about what your own strengths are, and then think about what your weaknesses are, and then think what you need this person’s strengths to be then due to your weakness, right?

Like, these are things that you just really need to be thinking about. And I loved even how you shared about confidence and competence. There are two different things and how can you nurture them both so that you can have people that are innovative, that you have people that are willing to take risks, or that you have people that can bring such fresh and new ideas, because everything is consistently changing.

I mean, I, I’m. pretty sure like the last couple of years, we’ve just seemed like a crazy amount of change in such a short amount of time in entrepreneurship. And I just think of like working in general. And so I just love so much of that because I think those things are just so, so important. And I really want to touch base really quick on delegation, because I’m somebody like even myself, I struggle to.

Yeah. Delegate because I feel like even delegating as a business sort of requires a whole new level of time that you just don’t even realize that like it requires, you know what I mean? And I think there’s a lot of us are like, okay, we want to build a team, but we struggle a lot with delegation and. What advice would you have for business owners that are like, okay, or maybe they already have a contractor and they’re wanting to actually bring somebody more full time.

Like how do we get more confident in delegating and showing up more of that leader in our business as we try to bring more people on? 

Audrey: You know, I, my, my point of view on that, um, might be controversial in the sense that I think that delegating is one style of leadership. And I don’t think one size fits all.

So, you know, delegating is one style of leadership. So, you know, what are the other styles of leadership, right? We’ve got coaching, we’ve got supporting, and we’ve got directing, right? We’ve got these other three styles. And delegating is one area. Going back to this idea of understanding people’s strengths will help us better identify of those four quadrants.

Where do people, where do people fit in for the thing that you’re trying to delegate to them? Right? Because sure, they might have high confidence and high competence in the area. And when they have high competence and high confidence, sure you can delegate because delegate means you give them the full responsibility.

They have a track record of working with you and getting the results. So therefore you delegate the whole thing. Right. But if they have low confidence and low competence, you’re not going to delegate that project, that task, whatever it is out to them. You’re going to probably look at the coaching and the supporting level and ask yourself, Hey, what did this person, what does this person need?

And coaching and supporting are two different types of leadership skills, right? So coaching is actually, uh, more intense than supporting. So coaching is coming in and you are actually Letting this person know what success looks like, right? When you coach you’re telling them this is what success in coaching and when I say coaching I know that we’re not talking about business coaching because that looks very different than the type of internal coaching that I’m talking about So internal coaching when you’re coaching a team member, you’re still in control of the outcome That means you’re saying this is what success looks like right now.

Let’s work together define the steps They’ll take for success and Let’s look at where what you’re accountable to in this success and what I’m accountable to in getting clear on that right and that comes back to the whole concept of getting clear on authority and accountability for the person that you are delegating, or at least trying to get to help you complete a project, right?

That’s coaching. Supporting is a little bit different. Supporting is, look, this person might have done a project like this in some similar vein, similar, uh, Uh, maybe they work for someone else and they had a project that looks similar wasn’t exactly it and they don’t have the exact confidence To do the whole thing.

Well, you’re still gonna you’re gonna support them and by supporting them You’re gonna actually say look like you define what success looks like for me You come to me what the milestones are and let’s go through it together and i’ll tell you Where you know, I want to kind of speak into it and you tell me what you don’t need me to speak into it That’s supporting right so you can see that Coaching, supporting, and delegating all look different.

You have to really understand the strengths of the person you’re working with and also the project and what your expectations are in order to assign it out correctly and determine the leadership style that fits the, uh, that fits the actual circumstance. Now, the one that we didn’t talk about is directing.

Directing is the one where most people are like, well, that’s not the space I want to be in. So directing is you telling that person exactly what they need to do step by step. And most leaders find that being a place of frustration because they’re like, well, if I hired this person to do the job, why should I, you know, spend time telling them all the steps, right?

And there is a time and a space for directing. So directing is when something is super urgent and you don’t have the time to do coaching. to do supporting or even delegate, right? It’s when something is on fire and you’ve got like 24 hours to turn it around, you’re going to direct, right? And in the directing type of space, You know, I believe in good directing and poor directing and good directing when you have to direct is all is sharing with someone look like this isn’t my natural style of leadership.

I don’t like to direct. Here’s why I’m directing. We’ve got 24 hours before this thing blows up. And I simply need it done. I know that you’ve got skills here. But you know, because of our timeline, I’m just gonna go through and kind of tell you how I need to get done, right? You know, I don’t expect this to happen, you know, every single time, right?

And the next time it happens, I’m expecting you to use this outline as the guideline. Do you see like, that’s good directing, right? Cause you’re directing with a very clear purpose. 

Akua: Yes. 

Audrey: So that, you know, so you asked me about delegating and I just gotta say, like, I feel like delegating is one of four different styles.

And before you even delegate, you really have to analyze where does this person fit into? Is it directing, delegating, supporting, or coaching in order for you to feel like you don’t have to go back and redo the work and in order for you to build some up in your business that is not only going to be there for the long term, but can grow their skills and abilities.

Akua: Oh my gosh. That is like. I loved that controversial take because I literally have never thought of that. I didn’t even realize I’m like, that makes so much sense though, of like delegating from supporting to coaching. And it really, I think that’s awesome because I, again, it’s like, it just shows again, that our businesses, it’s really truly not a one size fits all.

It really, really is not. And you have to really look in at your model. You have to look in at what season of business that you’re in, what your goals are, your vision that you want to accomplish. Then you can have the people. Um, but also to look at what you, what your timeline, like what your capacity is, like, do I have the capacity to coach or support or not?

Or do I have, do I have the capacity to direct? Do you see though, that sometimes bit like business owners will be using all four at different times. The different styles. Yeah 

Audrey: 100 percent You can have a person who is really confident and really competent in one area But they have expressed desire to maybe grow and take on another area And because you trust them you want to see them in that space, too And so you’re not gonna delegate that new thing out to them You’re gonna have to figure out of the quadrants.

Where do you live? do you live in directing supporting or coaching in this case because It would be building for the long term. You most likely will live in either the supporting or the coaching quadrant. Right. So you hit the nail on the head just because you start with one style with someone doesn’t mean that you stay with that style forever and ever and ever.

Right. There’s a flexibility in that style. 

Akua: Yes. Oh, that is so helpful. And I think, yeah, it’s like delegation isn’t the only way. And you’re not only going to always be delegating in your business. So it’s again, as a business owner of like really internally, just thinking about just really analyzing again, like what my capacity is, like, what do I, what can I do in this season right now as I’m looking to scale, right.

And so, and, and then build off of that, right. Like just making that first step and then building and building and building as you go forward. And as you continue to expand your team. And I really. Would love to just kind of shift the conversation a little bit because you also have another controversial take that I think is so interesting where you believe that having like niche, like having a niche or like really and your own expertise, you feel like that’s holding business owners back.

Why? 

Audrey: I gotta say this. I believe in niches, right? So I, I believe in niches, actually. So I, I believe that, um, I work with agency owners and I’ve been in the agency space for 10 years. I’ve worked with big agencies and large agencies. From what I see in the agency space for small agencies, it really is moving towards having a clear niche in the marketplace in order to stand out, right?

So having a niche means that you’re developing hardcore expertise in an industry. Right. And when you develop the hardcore expertise in the industry, you are, there’s competition in niches and there always will be, but you’re more competitive than the generalist out there because the generalists typically are the big guys.

Okay. So in agency world, the generalists are the big guys and people see the big guys be generalists and I think, well, they can be, I can be it too. And here’s my thought. It’s not the case because a big agency can be a generalist because they have the resources to do so. Okay. And that’s one reason. The other reason is with bigger agencies, typically they’re serving larger clients, like fortune 100s, fortune 500s.

And those types of clients want an agency that’s a little bit more of a generalist, right? But when you’re a smaller agency and you want to get the business of smaller businesses or even medium sized businesses, and in some cases as a small agency, you can also get large, large, Types of businesses because you’re specialized and I’ve clients who have done that People will come to you because they realize that you understand their buyer’s journey I.

e the buyer’s journey in that niche very clearly and when you understand the buyer’s journey of the industry niche Then you don’t have to replicate that information. You don’t do research for that information You can apply your intellectual property to that client and that’s what’s attractive Right.

In the small agency space is when your niche, you have intellectual property and can apply it. I think where the niche element becomes a disadvantage. So in everything there is an advantage and a disadvantage, right? And so where the niche element becomes a disadvantage is what I call the curse of expertise.

The curse of expertise, and you might resonate with the curse of expertise if you’re a marketer or consultant or creative, you know, who has been doing something for months or years. And because you’re perfecting your craft in a service or an industry niche, you have very deep knowledge and very deep skills, right?

Here’s the challenge. Here’s the disadvantage. The deeper your understanding, the harder it becomes for you to get it out of your brain so that someone else can help you implement it. Now think of driving a car, right? So after years of experience, I drive a car and I know not everyone drives a car, but after years of experience, you know, I don’t have to think about every single little move behind the wheel.

Like I instinctively know when to brake, when to accelerate, how to navigate. through traffic, it’s like second nature to me. But if I had to teach someone to drive, like my niece, who’s learning to drive right now, well, I need to break everything down into super simple steps, right? You have to explain how to feel the right pressure on the gas pedal, how to time your turns and how to check your mirrors.

It’s just not automatic for her. Right. And so that’s the curse of expert. You’re so skilled at what you do. It’s hard to remember what it was like to be a novice, right? Making it challenging to put in the right structure, the right systems and the right processes to either teach or transfer that knowledge to others.

Akua: That is okay. That makes complete sense. I’m like, so what can business owners Do I guess if they are like, okay that’s me and I’m wanting to scale Get out of that space. Yeah get out of that space. Yes. Yeah, 

Audrey: so let me let me give you uh, two examples here and I think i’ll start with some examples because Oftentimes people think, Oh, well, this is for someone who’s probably more on the newer side, right?

That doesn’t know how to take their business and break it down into a way where others can come in and support. But I digress. It actually can be a challenge for someone who is even deeper and further along the journey, right? So, so two different types of clients come to mind. And when I say type, all I mean is that the different parts of the journey they’re on in their business, right?

So let me, let me share. And I’m, I’m changing the names here just to protect, uh, just to protect them. But let me, let me share, uh, the story of Jean and, and, and the story of Anne. So, uh, Jean doesn’t have a team yet and Anne does have a small team, right? So Jean is building a fractional COO or chief operating officer agency.

And she has a six figure business, but she’s stuck at the lower six figures because she is the one with all this expertise in her head and she doesn’t know how to build that team. Right? So the challenge, the major challenge she has is she can’t take on more clients, right? Because she’s like overwhelmed by all this work that she has.

Now, part of her believes that this is just the way it has to be. And she really can’t see how to even transfer that knowledge over to anyone. The big turning point for her was when she went on vacation in over a year, her first vacation, and she thought that she would come back to ease and flow. But when she came back, she came back to the same craziness that she left behind.

And really, she just came back to overwhelm. It was like she never took a vacation and the vacation never happened, right? At that point that’s when Jean reached out to me and I remember her saying that she was at this point where she felt lost for hope and ready to just give it all up, right? And she really thought this is how it has to be.

Now the challenge is that she’s used to being the doer, right? So her brain is like, Identify solutions really quickly when she’s working on a problem and she zips to it, right? Making it hard for her to see how to structure what she’s doing into something that’s actually scalable And that’s what we did We we find the scalable structure that honors her strengths and then we develop a plan to build the team around the rest, right?

The first thing we had to do was Untangle everything that Jean was doing. Now to Jean, it seemed like she had to do everything because there was no structure. And for the most part, she just came in and did the work. And we had to take what she was doing, walk her through it so we could break it down into offerings and then restructure it.

And when you find the structure, you can streamline it. And Anne, Anne’s different story. Anne has a small marketing agency with a very clear niche. Now, in this case, Anne has a multiple six figure agency and she has a small team, but she couldn’t really get herself out of certain things. Like, she was still stuck in the weeds of implementation and client meetings.

I had a business partner and her business partner and her had this new idea that they want to develop. And I really felt that if she stepped out of her agency, that everything would stop or stall. And the turning point was when They started to see a lot of churn in the business. Churn means clients leaving.

So in particular, they lost a big client. And because of that churn and felt that, um, her and her partner were not giving enough attention to the clients, which is why the churn was happening. Right. But the problem is how do you replicate and in the business without and doing the work in order to stop the churn so that I can step out and work on that new project?

Well, we have to really clarify. All the services that I was actually providing first, because guess what? She was actually doing unpaid work without her even knowing it. Right. So once we took that 10, 000 foot view, we were able to clarify what all the unpaid work was structure it and the streamline it back into the offerings.

Right. And this actually gave Ann and her partner the confidence to hire the right person for the right role. And, you know, the business made more money and they were able to then work on the new project. So those two examples that really highlight. how business orders at different stages can be stuck in that curse of the expert or in other cases called the curse of the expertise.

And I think in order for someone to really get out of the curse of the expertise, the first thing is what I call awareness of A to Z thinking. A to Z thinking happens when your brain zips to a solution really fast. Because you’re naturally gifted and really good at that work. So if you’re zipping to a solution really fast from A to Z, guess what?

A, B, B, C, D, E, E, F. So along the down the path, you’re missing all those different steps. Right? And if we want someone to come in and. And support us. Well, we’ve got to be able to slow down our thinking, which is really hard when you’re really good at something, right? To slow down that thinking and understand, look, if we need someone to help us support this work, we’ve got to understand how we go from A to B, B to C, C to D, right, before we jump from A to Z.

If that’s the first thing, it’s just awareness that you’re doing that A to Z thinking. The next thing, if you really want to permanently unstuck yourself, you have to believe you can transfer that knowledge. Keyword is transfer knowledge. Now, if you don’t believe you can transfer the knowledge, you’re going to find yourself doing the same things over and over again.

And you’re hoping that those same actions will create different results. I see this all the time. People come back to their business to do the same things over and over again, hoping that it actually will create a different result. And when you do that, when you do the same things, expecting the different result, I think the, the actual definition of that is insanity.

The actual definition of that is insanity. And that’s what Leads business owners to really give up, right? So, you know, understanding and believing that you can transfer the knowledge is that next step. But the most important step is. Take action. Once, you know, once you, once you can have awareness of AZ thinking, once you believe that you can transfer knowledge, the last thing is take action to transfer that knowledge.

Now, again, common knowledge is that processes is how you transfer your knowledge. And sure, like, Processes are totally required to pass on your expertise. I’m not saying they’re not. But the real challenge isn’t processes. When someone is fully stuck in the weeds trying to structure their business to scale, it’s actually the structuring and the streamlining of your expertise that needs to come first.

So for example, my client who’s building an OBM agency, they’re like, Excellent at processes and yet they still can’t step out to figure out how they’re gonna scale their business How did I get other people come in and help them implement the work? And you can imagine like because they have property because they know processes.

It’s not the processes That is the challenge to streamlining their business. It’s having a structure that can be streamlined, right? It’s how we internally structure your offers And we think of the curse of the expert and how to get out of it. How do you take action against it? It’s stepping away to take that 10, 000 foot view in order to see the structure of a business that can be scalable.

I liken it to like this ball of yarn, right? So if you think of a ball of yarn, it’s like, it’s all tangled up, right? And unless you untangle it, right, you’ll never find the beginning and the end. And, you know, that’s what we do. We come in and we pull that urine apart so we can put it back together in a structured way.

And, you know, there are, and I will say that taking that 10, 000 foot view, there are six steps that we do typically follow when we do work with our clients. And I’ll share kind of what those six steps are. So if you are looking to take that 10, 000 foot view, what I’m really encouraging you to do is, Don’t start with processes.

I know that sounds counterintuitive, but I’m really saying don’t start processes, right? Start with the 10, 000 foot view. And you can take these six steps to do that. The first is assess your current offering. Start by listing like all the services you offer. Like chances are you’ve got too many. Okay.

Chances are, I will tell you you’ve cut too many. And what we want to do is look at the cost to deliver each service versus the revenue it actually generates. In which ones. Are truly profitable in your business. You need to know which ones are truly profitable and then identify which services are most in demand and then which are less frequently requested.

Right. Then we got to look at identifying your core services. So you want to choose services that again, align with your strengths and expertise, prioritize the services that have the highest. Profit margins are easier to deliver. Remember we’re streamlining, right? So think about which services provide the most value to your client and how they meet their needs.

I remember we’re streamlining here, right? And then you want to eliminate. Or outsource your low value services. So it’s time to discontinue services that are in low demand, low profitability, or require way too many resources to deliver. If some services are still valuable, but not central to your business, really consider outsourcing those services.

And now we go back to restructure. We start to bundle your services again, right? We create service bundles that have more value to clients that make you more value. And then we can simplify your delivering process. Right? This can help us increase your average transaction value, meaning you make more money by providing less.

And you can also offer different levels of services that helps you cater to different client needs and their different budgets. After you have all that done, then we start to standardize processes, right? When you have clarity and all of the above, then it’s time to develop really clear step by step procedures.

For delivering those core services. And the very last step here is refine, refining your pricing strategy. Now you, after you’ve done all that work, you need to adjust your pricing to reflect the value delivered rather than what I call the cost plus model. So the cost plus model is. Looking at the cost and just adding a percentage on top of it, right?

That’s a cost plus model What i’m talking about when it comes to value delivered is ensuring that your pricing structure Not only leaves enough margin for profitability after all costs are accounted for but really what’s the value at that? It provides the um the the company or the person you’re giving this service to So those, those are the six steps that I really recommend.

If you want to take that 10, 000 foot view and move away from this idea that if you start with processes, you can truly streamline your business. Uh, and again, I know that might be controversial, but that, you know, I’ve, I’ve, in the way that I’ve worked with my clients, the highest value is that 10, 000 foot view.

Akua: Number one, I suffer from the curse of expertise. That’s definitely something I can now confirm after everything you just shared. Um, this was phenomenal. I think every single business owner, I think a lot of us really need to, I, I feel like this is definitely going to be a conversation that I’m going to be listening to over and over because I think so many good tangible tips of how we can really, really, really Really just get out of that space and really just again, look at everything from this 10, 000 foot view and really just break things down step by step.

And it’s very clear that this is not going to be an overnight thing. This is the thing that you have to consistently work at and work through as a business owner. If you were looking to scale, if you were looking to have more of that breathing room, have more of that freedom in your business, it’s going to be.

And I think again, it just goes to the fact that systems are so, so key to having a sustainable business. Like I say this all the time, but I know it’s not sexy, but if you’re wanting your business to be here for tomorrow, that’s what you absolutely need and you need to make that time to really build out, build it out in a way that feels really good to you.

And that also to empowers the team that you’re building and, you know, really creating this amazing culture. Right. And I think that’s just so important, especially when you have people that are equally on fire for your vision. So I think a lot of these things are so important to help really to fuel that.

What is next for you? I mean, you’ve been doing so much amazing work. What’s going on in this season of your life? 

Audrey: Oh, thank you for that question. We’re working on a project this year called Agency Together, and it was born from listening to the needs of agency owners in this economy, and also my desire to change this, what I call this, Dog eat dog world for agency owners, which is the belief that if one agency owner gets one client, another loses one.

So agency together is our referral network for agency owners to get more referrals and collaborations. We’ve been running fully facilitated cohorts and pods of nine. And in the first meeting alone, we’re seeing like 27 referrals and connections shared in just one pod. So I’m overjoyed and super excited to see that level of collaboration and growth.

for the people that I’m working with. And I encourage you, if you’re an agency owner and you know that referrals are the lifeblood of your business, yeah, reach out to me, I’d love to have a chat with you because I’m on a mission really to change this idea that it has to be a dog eat dog world, it doesn’t have to be that way.

Akua: Oh my gosh, I love that so, so much, like community over competition and that, I mean truly like. I just think of my own business journey of just how far I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t, say, if it wasn’t for the amazing community that have helped me build the business. And I think that’s just, that’s so important as a business owner.

And I love that. And so a question that we love to end with is, what do you think is the biggest differentiator between the businesses that succeed and the ones that fail? 

Audrey: Hmm. I’ve been in business for 10 years and I’m going to speak from my experience. I think it’s knowing when to pivot. You can hang on to something that isn’t working for way too long and that zaps your time and your energy.

And one thing I’ve learned in, in 10 years is don’t be afraid to do what I call strategic experiments. The word strategic is so important to me. I mean, for me, that means keeping my experiments aligned to knowing who my customers are and who they are. What challenges they face in this economic season and then aligning my products to match their needs And how I have made that happen over the last 10 years is by better listening I think many people are so busy talking They forget to listen and I believe that those who succeed ask better questions Listen more and then they proceed to generally want to give more than they get 

Akua: Oh, my goodness.

So good. I mean, every single answer that you’ve provided is just full of so much wisdom and just impact. And I think as a business owner, it requires for me to do a lot of reflecting about the type of business that I truly, truly want and really just sitting down and doing the work, right. To be able to, to get out of that curse of expertise and really like, how can I put, cause I’m literally, that’s literally me of like, Trying to break it down.

How do I put it on pen to paper? Because I’m always like just going straight to the solution. And then also just better listening, like what’s happening in the industry and everything like that. Just so much goodness in this whole conversation. And just thank you. Thank you so much for all the amount of value that you have provided, um, throughout this whole conversation.

And so for people that want to connect with you, where can they find you? 

Audrey: If you want to explore working with us, send me an email for a free consultation at Support at Audreyjoykwan. com. We promise a roadmap on that call. We are no fluff and you’ll walk away with a roadmap. So send us that email. 

Akua: Yes. Oh my gosh, absolutely.

Audrey. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here and for everybody listening until next time. That ends our episode of the independent business podcast. Everything we’ve discussed today can be found at podcast. honeybook. com. Head to our website to access for show notes, relevant links, and all of the resources that you need to level up.

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